Should Catholics be concerned about animals?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Marfran
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
mercifulJan said:
Was it Jesus who sent them to drown or was it the demons that did it??
Click to expand...
Cracker_Mom said:
It would take a better Bible scholar than me to answer that. Since God’s in charge I’d guess whichever way, it was with His permission.
Click to expand...
Maybe the pigs committed suicide, driven mad by the demons… They do that I hear…demons driving people mad as well as pigs…:cool:
 
Bill_Cherry said:
** Very well put, Ridgerunner. I have to respect that. I have just one question. As strange or naive as it may seem. Why did St. Francis preach to the birds?**
Click to expand...
Quite possibly he saw forward into something we do not see; a new heaven and a new earth. I was intrigued by C.S. Lewis’ “Perelandra”, in which Lewis treated of that according to his own vision. If you have not read it, I encourage you to do so, as I think you would find it fascinating.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Quite possibly he saw forward into something we do not see; a new heaven and a new earth. I was intrigued by C.S. Lewis’ “Perelandra”, in which Lewis treated of that according to his own vision. If you have not read it, I encourage you to do so, as I think you would find it fascinating.
Click to expand...
Thanks. I will put it on my ‘to read’ list.👍
 
Marfran said:
Yes, very well put Ridgerunner.
  1. outright falsehoods? Which specifically? (helps to clarify to be able to address, respond to) ** There were a number of them, but the ones that most stuck in my mind were a) that business about their breasts being so heavy their legs break. I have seen many thousands of those chickens, and it just isn’t so. They “fudged” a bit with the “cages” the individual hogs are kept in. I have seen those. They aren’t cages, but feeding stalls the pigs can go in and out of. Animals have a natural instinct to eat their fellows’ food and neglect what’s in front of them. This device, like cattle stanchions, prevent them from doing it. Further, “dominant animals” will sometimes not let those at the bottom of the “pecking order” eat at all. This prevents it.**
  2. Love this passage Ridgerunner! (Note: this cattleman feeds his cattle GRASS and I take it that they eat it outdoors. That’s what they are designed to eat. Many factory farmers feed cattle corn. See the documentary film ***Food, Inc. ***if you are interested in learning what’s wrong with feeding cattle corn. tiny.cc/dEjOP ) I’ll watch it when I have time. I’m not personally too impressed with corn feeding. Still, it must be understood that, in the course of grazing, cattle eat all kinds of seeds and, at certain times of year, a great deal of them. And, of course, corn is nothing but a seed. So, while corn feeding can certainly be unnaturally excessive, it is not unnatural per se.
  3. No one is saying that animals are people, or that they are equal to people. Is it a false god to love your meat so much that one can’t even entertain the thought of living without it, or reducing the consumption of it?
Click to expand...
Well, that’s true of any “creature”, including vegan diets and my own family. There is a proper balance in everything, remembering, always, that our ultimate goal is union with God. Still, as members of a very “earthy” Church (and we are, in truth) we might remember a line from Chesterton and one from Belloc.

“The Catholic church is a thick steak, good ale and a fine cigar.” (Chesterton) We poor benighted Americans seem always to have a hangover headache from our Puritan past. We are presently all in some danger of converting from “sexual puritanism” to “substance puritanism”. But as Belloc said:

“Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine, there’s music, laughter and good red wine. At least I’ve always found it so. Benidicamus Domino.” (Belloc)

I have always liked those. By both statements, Chesterton and Belloc both intended to convey that Catholicism is a rich and luxurious religion, both in spritual ways and as regards the goods of the earth. Those who have concerns for animals may, of course, reflect that among the panoply of images represented without compunction by the Catholic Church are the stable animals in the Creches at Christmastime. I must confess that I am very fond of that sort of thing.
 
Ridgerunner said:
“The Catholic church is a thick steak, good ale and a fine cigar.” (Chesterton)
Click to expand...
I must be in the wrong religion. I don’t eat steak, drink ale (that’s beer right? I don’t know how people drink that bitter stuff), or smoke cigars (and I don’t want to be near anyone who is smoking those stinky things–pee u).
 
Marfran said:
I must be in the wrong religion. I don’t eat steak, drink ale (that’s beer right? I don’t know how people drink that bitter stuff), or smoke cigars (and I don’t want to be near anyone who is smoking those stinky things–pee u).
Click to expand...
**I will take a nice sweet Ale over a bitter beer anyday!!!👍

Cigars? Very nasty.:hey_bud:**
Just my humble opinion
 
Marfran said:
I must be in the wrong religion. I don’t eat steak, drink ale (that’s beer right? I don’t know how people drink that bitter stuff), or smoke cigars (and I don’t want to be near anyone who is smoking those stinky things–pee u).
Click to expand...
Ale is not beer! Ale is cold brewed and beer is hot brewed. Give me a nice lager over a tasteless ale any day.
 
Marfran said:
I must be in the wrong religion. I don’t eat steak, drink ale (that’s beer right? I don’t know how people drink that bitter stuff), or smoke cigars (and I don’t want to be near anyone who is smoking those stinky things–pee u).
Click to expand...
You have to realize that, while Chesterton himself certainly appreciated all three, he was also speaking metaphorically. It was his belief that Catholicism, truly considered, encourages those pleasures of the earth that, he felt, were gifts from a benevolent God who truly wanted us to enjoy them. Others would have preferred a plate of fish or veggies, a glass of sparkling cider and the scent of a rose.

But he meant it in a spiritual sense as well. One has to realize that, in his time, there was a lot of Jansenism floating around. Also, much of European protestantism was puritanical. Chesterton felt that such ways of seeing things as being the Will of God, were simply wrong. God, he felt, is not the Prussian schoolmaster with avenging ruler in hand that many felt Him to be, and he felt it was corrupting for people to think of God in that way. Puritanism of heart is a paganism of a sort. Paganism, at the root, is the very opposite of our seeking to do the will of God. Rather, it is our attempting to “control the gods”. If I say this incantation or sacrifice that, the gods will necessarily to “X”, which I desire. Puritanism, in its heart of hearts is a pagan incantation. “If I do this and refrain from this and this and this, I will control God, so I can then obtain “X” from God or do “Y” with impunity.”

Chesterton believed in a kinder God.

Times have changed in detail, but not so very much in philosophical and religious underpinnings. We truly have changed from “sexual puritanism” to “substance puritanism”. Our social mores tolerate extreme sexual license and perversity, but by golly we had better not smoke, or carry a “tire” around our bellies or have cellulite encircling our thighs like so many rings of Saturn. And the “god” is primarily a secular god. The rewards, as with paganism, are fundamentally earthly. If I sacrifice a white bull to Apollo, he will cure my gout. If I visit the oracle at Delphi and give her coins, she will foretell my future. If I sacrifice my child to Moloch, he will cause my wide-hulled ship to come in to the harbor at Carthage laden with spices and jewels from India and slaves from Nubia. That’s God on MY terms. Paganism.

And maybe, just maybe, if I build a pyramid and point it in the right direction and have a thousand priests chant all the right chants, I will live forever. I will capture the gods and bend their wills to mine.

But none of us will live forever on this earth. God placed an angel with a sword of flame between us and the gates of the garden of Eden. We will all die, and everything we do contributes to it. A cardiologist once told me that the most dangerous time for strokes and heart attacks occurs just as we are waking up. The transition from sleep to awakeness is a major jolt to the system, and most strokes and heart attacks occur then. And so, Chesterton’s thick steak will contribute in some measure to my demise, as will the chlorine-laden water I drink and the mere act of getting up in the morning. We can’t get out of that, no matter what we do.

But while we’re here, there’s a steak for a meat-eater, and a fully sun-ripened plum for the vegan (well, and for me too) And a kiss on the cheek from a child who has God’s imprint on her forehead. Gifts from a forgiving God who knows we’re weaker than we think we are, and gives us things even here.

And so, Chesterton and Belloc (and St Therese of Lisieux) tell us the incantations are not important. The love of God is important, and of our fellow man. And just as important is to revel in the love God has for us; to really feel it and take comfort in it, and appreciate Him for it. And to Chesterton, the Church, therefore is a thick steak, a good ale and a fine cigar, because those are gifts God gave us (if we enjoy them) and are signs of His love, as is a Church that will say “Well, yes, that sin you committed is a terrible thing, but it’s over now. It’s gone, because God let us say that to you and mean it. Go on home.”. He didn’t expect us to eat razor blades or be tortured with guilt for the seven times seven sins Jesus told us even a just man commits every day. To Belloc, Catholicism is a glass of wine, a joke and a song. Freebies. Gifts given with love.
 
Ridgerunner said:
I readily admit that there might be “factory farm” situations that might really be a proper subject for remedy. I also think the Church has a legitimate place to instruct us on the proper treatment of animals. To me, it’s rather like telling a small boy not to destroy a toy plane he got for Christmas by putting it down the garbage disposal. These animals are gifts, and I fully believe that, and should be treated in that manner. Every time I work with my cattle, I think how beneficient God really was in giving us animals that could convert useless grass (weeds in the case of goats) into nutritious food. I think about that every time. And I think about the good health, generous pastues and sparkling clean water I can deliver to those animals as “my part of the deal”. But “my part of the deal” has to include the cautionary thought that those animals are not people. They are not. And it is just as wrong for me to think of them that way as it is for me to think of them as inanimate objects like so much limestone gravel. To me, anthropomorphizing animals is a false god; a golden calf, as it were. We are bidden to see the Face of Christ in people, not in calves.
Click to expand...
I think this was beautifully put - and I really don’t think there is a lot of the golden calf issue here - because as you say people are ignorant about the way their food comes to their tables - I believe you as a Catholic Farmer who sees his position as part of creation - you my friend are the exception that proves the rule.

I believe what has changed for the large agri businesses is that profit has moved between animal production and the table - and you and I can certainly agree this is wrong.

God Bless,
 
Ridgerunner said:
Quite possibly he saw forward into something we do not see; a new heaven and a new earth. I was intrigued by C.S. Lewis’ “Perelandra”, in which Lewis treated of that according to his own vision. If you have not read it, I encourage you to do so, as I think you would find it fascinating.
Click to expand...
Very cool book. I read the whole trilogy years ago.👍
 
Ridgerunner said:
Well, that’s true of any “creature”, including vegan diets and my own family. There is a proper balance in everything, remembering, always, that our ultimate goal is union with God. Still, as members of a very “earthy” Church (and we are, in truth) we might remember a line from Chesterton and one from Belloc.

“The Catholic church is a thick steak, good ale and a fine cigar.” (Chesterton) We poor benighted Americans seem always to have a hangover headache from our Puritan past. We are presently all in some danger of converting from “sexual puritanism” to “substance puritanism”. But as Belloc said:

“Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine, there’s music, laughter and good red wine. At least I’ve always found it so. Benidicamus Domino.” (Belloc)

I have always liked those. By both statements, Chesterton and Belloc both intended to convey that Catholicism is a rich and luxurious religion, both in spritual ways and as regards the goods of the earth. Those who have concerns for animals may, of course, reflect that among the panoply of images represented without compunction by the Catholic Church are the stable animals in the Creches at Christmastime. I must confess that I am very fond of that sort of thing.
Click to expand...
If I remember,some of the extreme food movements also involved some form of sexual abstinence or celibacy. It all sounds like the old “matter is evil” arguement versus the Church’s stand that flesh & material things are created by God for our enjoyment & good. It’s only when we misuse them that we get into trouble.
I hear a strain of Puritanism not just in these threads but across the board on CAF sometimes.It’s easy in these current times of excess to overreact the other way & retreat into Calvinism or a pseudo-asceticism, but that’s not our Faith.
 
Cracker_Mom said:
If I remember,some of the extreme food movements also involved some form of sexual abstinence or celibacy. It all sounds like the old “matter is evil” arguement versus the Church’s stand that flesh & material things are created by God for our enjoyment & good. It’s only when we misuse them that we get into trouble.
I hear a strain of Puritanism not just in these threads but across the board on CAF sometimes.It’s easy in these current times of excess to overreact the other way & retreat into Calvinism or a pseudo-asceticism, but that’s not our Faith.
Click to expand...
I have been saying all along on several threads that the lines between Catholicism and fundamental protestantism are getting more muddled everyday. Due, partially I think to radio personalities like Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck and the various “Non-Denominational” forms of religious entertainment such as TBN and Pat Robertson. They all have very ‘patriotic’ things to say which can cause an emotional knee jerk, but is really of little, if any, relevance other than to distract well meaning people from the “UNIVERSAL” or “CATHOLIC” doctrine. Which, as you have so beautifully stated, has enough room for all of us. With that being said, it is interesting to read the above insinuations that somehow vegetarians and vegans are committing some sort of psuedo puritanism when in fact, it is perfectly in line with Catholic doctrine. But, just as any given sacramental is not necessarily required, such as certain chaplets and relics,… they are beneficial and in line with Catholic doctrine also, and their use encouraged as being OBEDIENT to the faith.Likewise it is right there in the Catechism of the Catholic Church,and the Holy Fathers’ speeches and writings that animal welfare is important and that animals do not deserve undue suffering or inhumane treatment. So, by choosing a vegetarian or vegan diet, one is also being OBEDIENT to the faith. Even though it is no more REQUIRED than saying the chaplet of St Micheal every Saturday.
 
Ridgerunner said:
But while we’re here, there’s a steak for a meat-eater, and a fully sun-ripened plum for the vegan (well, and for me too) And a kiss on the cheek from a child who has God’s imprint on her forehead. Gifts from a forgiving God who knows we’re weaker than we think we are, and gives us things even here.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the plum, Ridgerunner. You’re a good writer–what are you doing in this thread??? You should be off writing your memoir or something, instead of flinging hash with us!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top