Should Catholics be concerned about animals?

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4elise said:
I think this was beautifully put - and I really don’t think there is a lot of the golden calf issue here - because as you say people are ignorant about the way their food comes to their tables - I believe you as a Catholic Farmer who sees his position as part of creation - you my friend are the exception that proves the rule.

I believe what has changed for the large agri businesses is that profit has moved between animal production and the table - and you and I can certainly agree this is wrong.

God Bless,
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Yes, Ridgerunner is the exception to the rule.
 
Bill_Cherry said:
With that being said, it is interesting to read the above insinuations that somehow vegetarians and vegans are committing some sort of psuedo puritanism when in fact, it is perfectly in line with Catholic doctrine. But, just as any given sacramental is not necessarily required, such as certain chaplets and relics,… they are beneficial and in line with Catholic doctrine also, and their use encouraged as being OBEDIENT to the faith. Likewise it is right there in the Catechism of the Catholic Church,and the Holy Fathers’ speeches and writings that animal welfare is important and that animals do not deserve undue suffering or inhumane treatment. So, by choosing a vegetarian or vegan diet, one is also being OBEDIENT to the faith. Even though it is no more REQUIRED than saying the chaplet of St Micheal every Saturday.
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Right on green brother!
 
Bill_Cherry said:
**I have been saying all along on several threads that the lines between Catholicism and fundamental protestantism are getting more muddled everyday. Due, partially I think to radio personalities like Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck and the various “Non-Denominational” forms of religious entertainment such as TBN and Pat Robertson.

With that being said, it is interesting to read the above insinuations that somehow vegetarians and vegans are committing some sort of psuedo puritanism when in fact, it is perfectly in line with Catholic doctrine. But, just as any given sacramental is not necessarily required, such as certain chaplets and relics,… they are beneficial and in line with Catholic doctrine also, and their use encouraged as being OBEDIENT to the faith.Likewise it is right there in the Catechism of the Catholic Church,and the Holy Fathers’ speeches and writings that animal welfare is important and that animals do not deserve undue suffering or inhumane treatment. So, by choosing a vegetarian or vegan diet, one is also being OBEDIENT to the faith. Even though it is no more REQUIRED than saying the chaplet of St Micheal every Saturday.**
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I think it would be a mistake to confuse protestant fundamentalism with political conservatism and Calvinism. Most fundamentalists I know are, indeed, political conservatives, but they are conservatives in the same sort of sense that many Catholics are; they simply want as little government in their lives as reasonably possible. Many, if not most, are also resistant to the commercialism with which business attempts to seduce us.

It is interesting to re-read the Social Encyclicals in times like these. Without going into them in detail, one of the fundamental bases is the spiritual autonomy of the family and non-interference with its internal dynamics and faith journey. Nowadays, (as even in Pope Leo XIII’s time) the marketing of exterior philosophies and mores is intense. Big government and big business are sometimes at odds in this, and are sometimes in league. But extreme intrusion of either into the lives of individuals and families is the natural tendency of both, and tends to replace the spiritual values we might otherwise have with those that such “parties in interest” want us to have; dependency, consumerism, moral libertarianism, and so on.

So, as Flannery O’Connor observed, Fundamentalists, at least Southern Fundamentalists, are closer to Catholicism (and in more ways than that) than they are to classic Protestantism, and would be surprised, in the main, if they knew it. I know more of them that I know Catholics because of the region in which I live, and most are truly earnest and God-fearing people. Most are not what I would call “Calvinist” at all; their main focus being on “being close to Jesus”, and are quite aware of their own inability to impose their decrees on God (unlike Calvin). We should not dismiss to airily their objective to “accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior”. There is more to that than just words. Inasmuch as the Eucharist is, indeed, that which they unknowingly seek, I am inclined to agree with O’Connor, who opined that eventually the greatest missionary territory for Catholicism in the U.S. would be the American South. To that extent, then, “muddling” of Catholicism and protestant fundamentalism (at least of the Southern variety…I can’t speak for the north) may actually be a good thing. In my own parish, for example, our numbers increase by approximately 5% per year due to conversions, largely from protestant fundamentalism. Virtually every one of them cites their realization that the Eucharist is, indeed, “being close to Jesus” in the most powerful way that can be achieved on this earth.

One is right to be wary of media personalities of all kinds. It needs, however, to be realized that evangelical television personalities are not particularly representative of protestant fundamentalists. They make many compromises in achieving their fame, just as politicians do.

Vegans can definitely be on the verge of neo-paganism, and I have known some who, to me, seem to have already gone over the edge. But it isn’t necessarily the case, and I did not intend to imply that it’s a universal or even majority condition. I do get just a bit wary, though, when vegans begin declaring meat-eating sinful, just as I would be wary of someone who declared veganism (is that the right word?) sinful. Neither is sinful, but the reasons why we might be either one could infuse sinfulness into what is otherwise a morally neutral thing.
 
Ridgerunner said:
I think it would be a mistake to confuse protestant fundamentalism with political conservatism and Calvinism. Most fundamentalists I know are, indeed, political conservatives, but they are conservatives in the same sort of sense that many Catholics are; they simply want as little government in their lives as reasonably possible. Many, if not most, are also resistant to the commercialism with which business attempts to seduce us.

It is interesting to re-read the Social Encyclicals in times like these. Without going into them in detail, one of the fundamental bases is the spiritual autonomy of the family and non-interference with its internal dynamics and faith journey. Nowadays, (as even in Pope Leo XIII’s time) the marketing of exterior philosophies and mores is intense. Big government and big business are sometimes at odds in this, and are sometimes in league. But extreme intrusion of either into the lives of individuals and families is the natural tendency of both, and tends to replace the spiritual values we might otherwise have with those that such “parties in interest” want us to have; dependency, consumerism, moral libertarianism, and so on.

So, as Flannery O’Connor observed, Fundamentalists, at least Southern Fundamentalists, are closer to Catholicism (and in more ways than that) than they are to classic Protestantism, and would be surprised, in the main, if they knew it. I know more of them that I know Catholics because of the region in which I live, and most are truly earnest and God-fearing people. Most are not what I would call “Calvinist” at all; their main focus being on “being close to Jesus”, and are quite aware of their own inability to impose their decrees on God (unlike Calvin). We should not dismiss to airily their objective to “accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior”. There is more to that than just words. Inasmuch as the Eucharist is, indeed, that which they unknowingly seek, I am inclined to agree with O’Connor, who opined that eventually the greatest missionary territory for Catholicism in the U.S. would be the American South. To that extent, then, “muddling” of Catholicism and protestant fundamentalism (at least of the Southern variety…I can’t speak for the north) may actually be a good thing. In my own parish, for example, our numbers increase by approximately 5% per year due to conversions, largely from protestant fundamentalism. Virtually every one of them cites their realization that the Eucharist is, indeed, “being close to Jesus” in the most powerful way that can be achieved on this earth.

One is right to be wary of media personalities of all kinds. It needs, however, to be realized that evangelical television personalities are not particularly representative of protestant fundamentalists. They make many compromises in achieving their fame, just as politicians do.

Vegans can definitely be on the verge of neo-paganism, and I have known some who, to me, seem to have already gone over the edge. But it isn’t necessarily the case, and I did not intend to imply that it’s a universal or even majority condition. I do get just a bit wary, though, when vegans begin declaring meat-eating sinful, just as I would be wary of someone who declared veganism (is that the right word?) sinful. Neither is sinful, but the reasons why we might be either one could infuse sinfulness into what is otherwise a morally neutral thing.
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Well said.
We’ve visited Flannery O’Connor’s childhood home & her farm in Milledgeville.She’s one of my very favorite authors.
My thoughts, too re. morally neutral issues.It’s entirely folk’s business what they choose to eat, but giving it more importance than it’s due, makes me wary, too.
 
raw_vegan_girl said:
The obvious answer is yes. It’s not just the responsible stewardship issue. Though inferior to humans, animals and plants are connected to us by virtue that they come from the same Creator. Daniel 3:57-88 makes it plain that the entire material universe reflects God’s glory. If not being concerned about them (including plants) is perfectly okay with God then we shouldn’t be suffering from the consequences of not taking good care of them.We have cut down too many trees and whacked the pigs’ immune system, and now we’re experiencing global warming and witnessing swine flu kill hundreds of its victims.

What’s good about this video is that it doesn’t bash meat eaters in the head, it just offers the suggestion of cutting back on meat. I personally do not recommend meat, but the thing is that we cannot make everyone in the planet stop eating meat even with all these arguments. As long as men are free they will always have the choice of eating animal flesh. God knew that for Himself that’s why He made all animals clean. But what we can do is help others realize that there are other options–healthier, more environment- and animal-friendly choices.
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Daniel didn’t want the king’s food and wine, and only wanted vegetables and water - God gave the four young men knowledge and proficiency in all literature and science, and to Daniel the understanding of all visions and dreams. Daniel 1:8-20
What we eat is a spiritual decision which affects our relationship with God who sees our hearts.
 
mercifulJan said:
What we eat is a spiritual decision which affects our relationship with God who sees our hearts.
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Outside of cannibalism or gluttony how so?
There were evil vegetarians like Hitler & meat eating saints.
Abstaining from meat as a penance or sacrifice can be a spiritual good.I’m doing that today & expect to be offered fried chicken or some other temptation.Pray for me.😃
 
Ridgerunner said:
I think it would be a mistake to confuse protestant fundamentalism with political conservatism and Calvinism. Most fundamentalists I know are, indeed, political conservatives, but they are conservatives in the same sort of sense that many Catholics are; they simply want as little government in their lives as reasonably possible.
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Even living here in the beautiful state of Utah,I concur that even the LDS have similar morals and values as the RCC, in spite of the differences in their theologies. However, the social climate creates an aperture for melding attitudes of similarities as regards the overall paradigm of charity towards others. The reconstruction of Vatican II which encourages Catholics to take a more quantum or wholistic approach towards creation is overshadowed by the more mechanical view which the predominantly Mormon culture holds leading many of the faithful to accept the notion that animals and geological resources are given for exploitation and consumption rather than stewardship and conservation.
Many, if not most, are also resistant to the commercialism with which business attempts to seduce us.
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**Indeed! One must take into consideration that business and commercial agriculture are financial institutions desiring the patronage of the consumer. Hence, marketing strategies are often geared towards convincing the public that their products are “NEEDED” or “SUPERIOR”. In order to achieve this evidence is presented, often contrived or exaggerated to convince the public to buy it. We do not “NEED” animal products. We “WANT” animal products. What was once considered a luxury 150 years ago has now been given the appearance of a “NECESSITY”. Much like cell-phones, laptops and television. ** I have deleted this section for the sake of brevity. It is well stated, however…
Vegans can definitely be on the verge of neo-paganism, and I have known some who, to me, seem to have already gone over the edge. But it isn’t necessarily the case, and I did not intend to imply that it’s a universal or even majority condition. I do get just a bit wary, though, when vegans begin declaring meat-eating sinful, just as I would be wary of someone who declared veganism (is that the right word?) sinful. Neither is sinful, but the reasons why we might be either one could infuse sinfulness into what is otherwise a morally neutral thing.
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As is stated in the 14th chapter of Romans,"17 for it is not eating and drinking that make the kingdom of God, but the saving justice, the peace and the joy brought by the Holy Spirit."
It is a fact that the vast majority of Vegan supporters do have a propensity towards neo-paganism and even pro-abortion-very frustrating for me, personally. But, having been made aware of certain atrocious conditions and practices in the food industries, I can not in good conscience allow myself to be party to it. Again, in Romans 14,“14 I am sure, and quite convinced in the Lord Jesus, that no food is unclean in itself; it is only if someone classifies any kind of food as unclean, then for him it is unclean.” Because of this, I suppose it is “unclean” for me and others with similar sensibilities.
 
mercifulJan said:
Daniel didn’t want the king’s food and wine, and only wanted vegetables and water - God gave the four young men knowledge and proficiency in all literature and science, and to Daniel the understanding of all visions and dreams. Daniel 1:8-20
What we eat is a spiritual decision which affects our relationship with God who sees our hearts.
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If you’re going to quote scripture at me I’m going to insist on Romans 14.
 
Bill_Cherry said:
**Even living here in the beautiful state of Utah,I concur that even the LDS have similar morals and values as the RCC, in spite of the differences in their theologies. However, the social climate creates an aperture for melding attitudes of similarities as regards the overall paradigm of charity towards others. The reconstruction of Vatican II which encourages Catholics to take a more quantum or wholistic approach towards creation is overshadowed by the more mechanical view which the predominantly Mormon culture holds leading many of the faithful to accept the notion that animals and geological resources are given for exploitation and consumption rather than stewardship and conservation.****Indeed! One must take into consideration that business and commercial agriculture are financial institutions desiring the patronage of the consumer. Hence, marketing strategies are often geared towards convincing the public that their products are “NEEDED” or “SUPERIOR”. In order to achieve this evidence is presented, often contrived or exaggerated to convince the public to buy it. We do not “NEED” animal products. We “WANT” animal products. What was once considered a luxury 150 years ago has now been given the appearance of a “NECESSITY”. Much like cell-phones, laptops and television. ** I have deleted this section for the sake of brevity. It is well stated, however…As is stated in the 14th chapter of Romans,"17 for it is not eating and drinking that make the kingdom of God, but the saving justice, the peace and the joy brought by the Holy Spirit."
It is a fact that the vast majority of Vegan supporters do have a propensity towards neo-paganism and even pro-abortion-very frustrating for me, personally. But, having been made aware of certain atrocious conditions and practices in the food industries, I can not in good conscience allow myself to be party to it. Again, in Romans 14,“14 I am sure, and quite convinced in the Lord Jesus, that no food is unclean in itself; it is only if someone classifies any kind of food as unclean, then for him it is unclean.” Because of this, I suppose it is “unclean” for me and others with similar sensibilities.
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You have some good points.Business has always been about convincing us we need what they have for sale, but the marketing & mass media have become so much more sophisticated.I think this more affects consumer goods than food, but certainly our concept of a normal dinner or supper has greatly changed. We ate pinto beans & cornbread many nights & thought that perfectly OK. Nowadays folks consider that a poverty meal.
 
cracker mom said:
you have some good points.business has always been about convincing us we need what they have for sale, but the marketing & mass media have become so much more sophisticated.i think this more affects consumer goods than food, but certainly our concept of a normal dinner or supper has greatly changed. We ate pinto beans & cornbread many nights & thought that perfectly ok. Nowadays folks consider that a poverty meal.
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yummy!😃
 
Marfran said:
And what the hecks a lager?
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A lager is fermented with “bottom-fermenting” yeast and ferments at a cool temperature over a long (lager) period of time as opposed to the “top-fermenting” ales, which have a much shorter fermentation at a higher temperature.
mercifulJan said:
What we eat is a spiritual decision which affects our relationship with God who sees our hearts.
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Baloney. What we eat can be a spiritual decision…many people don’t have a choice as to what they eat, they eat what they have available or don’t eat at all.
 
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