Should Catholics be organ donors?

[Annie_B]

This topic has been on my mind and I was wondering what people here thought about it. Should Catholics (or anyone for that matter) be organ donors or receive donated organs? On the surface it seems an easy answer, but if you think about the fact that the body is still alive when the organs are harvested then it seems clear to me (maybe other?) that this is wrong. “Brain dead” does not mean that the person is actually dead. They are still people and alive! What do you think? I know that transplants save lives, but a life must be taken to get an organ for transplant. Shouldn’t it be up to God and God alone when someone dies? Someone asked me if I would approve of a transplant to save my child; I said no. What would you do?

Annie

 

[CherylW]

You might find this interesting

owensborodio.org/archives/newspaper/2000/5organ.html

 

[Newbie2]

This topic has been on my mind and I was wondering what people here thought about it. Should Catholics (or anyone for that matter) be organ donors or receive donated organs? On the surface it seems an easy answer, but if you think about the fact that the body is still alive when the organs are harvested then it seems clear to me (maybe other?) that this is wrong. “Brain dead” does not mean that the person is actually dead. They are still people and alive! What do you think? I know that transplants save lives, but a life must be taken to get an organ for transplant. Shouldn’t it be up to God and God alone when someone dies? Someone asked me if I would approve of a transplant to save my child; I said no. What would you do?

Annie

Good question. I’d say yes for my kid.

In some cases where discontinuation of life support would mean the death of the individual, it could be morally acceptable if the person has signed an organ donor card or if their family has the legal authority and permits such a donation, this all assuming that the donor is reasonable determined not to be able to recover.

“Reasonable” is perhaps problematic, though.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I am an organ donor. I take comfort in thinking that my last act may be to give the gift of life to someone else.

 

[TC2]

My husband has polycycstic kidneys.
At some point, he will most likely need a kidney.

You can bet I’ll be praying for that kidney, and ever
grateful for the love and generoustity that went into
its donation.

Should we allow God to determine when someone dies?
Well, would you use chemo if you had cancer?
Would you have heart surgery?
If you were in an accident, and needed major medical
care to live, would you want it?

We cannot pick and choose about the method of death.
To say that it should be up to God (I agree, but follow me)
means you refuse ALL medical care, as that is human
intervention. Playing God, if you will.

Do you use blood pressure medicine (general you, here,
not singling the OP out) or anti depressants or aspirin?
Same thing, interfering with the ‘natural’ cycle.

Now, here’s a thought. God gave us the brains, and the
skill, to implement the methods and medicine today,
and we should use them, and be grateful.

Story is told of a man caught in a flood. He had faith
that God would save him. His neighbors offered him a
ride in their boat, he refused. God will save me.
The water rose higher. Along came the rescue squad,
again he refused. God will save me. The water rose higher.

By this time he was on the roof. A helicopter was sent.
He refused, b/c God will save me. The water rose higher,
and he drowned. The man got to heaven and asked the
Lord why He didn’t save him, after all, he’d had such faith.

“I sent friends, rescue crews, and even a helicopter” said
the Lord “Why did you refuse my help?”.

I’m an organ donor, and gladly so. Yes I would take the
transplant for my child, husband, myself. I would hope,
in the donors families shoes, I could do the same with
my departed ones, and offer the gift of life, trusting God
to work it all out for good.

 

[Annie_B]

You might find this interesting

owensborodio.org/archives/newspaper/2000/5organ.html

Yes - very interesting. However, the problem (at least in my mind) is that a body must ~technically~ be alive for organ donation (as I understand it…). If a person is being kept alive artificially, they are still alive! There are, however, organs that can be donated from a living donor that chooses to donate then undergoes surgery, such as kidneys and liver transplants (a liver transplant can take place with a piece of a donor liver - the whole organ is not required, and a kidney can be donated leaving the donor with one kidney also). I just feel that it is wrong to take a life to save a life…I also find it disappointing that the medical profession has not been able to find a way to make organs viable if harvested immediately after death.

Annie

 

[Annie_B]

My husband has polycycstic kidneys.
At some point, he will most likely need a kidney.

You can bet I’ll be praying for that kidney, and ever
grateful for the love and generoustity that went into
its donation.

Should we allow God to determine when someone dies?
Well, would you use chemo if you had cancer?
Would you have heart surgery?
If you were in an accident, and needed major medical
care to live, would you want it?

We cannot pick and choose about the method of death.
To say that it should be up to God (I agree, but follow me)
means you refuse ALL medical care, as that is human
intervention. Playing God, if you will.

Do you use blood pressure medicine (general you, here,
not singling the OP out) or anti depressants or aspirin?
Same thing, interfering with the ‘natural’ cycle.

Now, here’s a thought. God gave us the brains, and the
skill, to implement the methods and medicine today,
and we should use them, and be grateful.

Story is told of a man caught in a flood. He had faith
that God would save him. His neighbors offered him a
ride in their boat, he refused. God will save me.
The water rose higher. Along came the rescue squad,
again he refused. God will save me. The water rose higher.

By this time he was on the roof. A helicopter was sent.
He refused, b/c God will save me. The water rose higher,
and he drowned. The man got to heaven and asked the
Lord why He didn’t save him, after all, he’d had such faith.

“I sent friends, rescue crews, and even a helicopter” said
the Lord “Why did you refuse my help?”.

I’m an organ donor, and gladly so. Yes I would take the
transplant for my child, husband, myself. I would hope,
in the donors families shoes, I could do the same with
my departed ones, and offer the gift of life, trusting God
to work it all out for good.

TC2 - I understand about your husband. My sister-in-law is in kidney failure and must have a transplant. As far as my daughter, I would gladly give any organ ~of my own~ so that she could live. However, I doubt that this would be permitted if I was still able to speak for myself. Can you imagine what the response would be if I, a healthy woman in her 40’s, said to a doctor that I want to donate my heart so that my daughter could live? I do not think that would be permitted. I pray for all those who need healing and will put your husband on my list.

Annie

 

[Annie_B]

Good question. I’d say yes for my kid.

In some cases where discontinuation of life support would mean the death of the individual, it could be morally acceptable if the person has signed an organ donor card or if their family has the legal authority and permits such a donation, this all assuming that the donor is reasonable determined not to be able to recover.

“Reasonable” is perhaps problematic, though.

I agree. I also think that if we decide that it is ok to end another’s life (even if they gave permission) then we rob God of the opportunity for a miracle.

Annie

 

[Annie_B]

Ok - here is something else to think about. Do any of you remember Terri Schiavo? She was considered “brain dead” by the “medical profession” but many Catholics and other people fought long and hard for her right to live. She was being kept alive by “artificial” means. In the end, the law won. Not God’s law - man’s law. How are others who are deemed “brain dead” any different?

Annie

 

[Annie_B]

I am an organ donor. I take comfort in thinking that my last act may be to give the gift of life to someone else.

Are you comfortable with another deciding if you are “dead enough” to donate? I wish the answers were easier…

Annie

 

[Annie_B]

TC2 - this is a “ps” to my other reply. I tried to edit but it was too late…

Annie

And yes, I would take chemo, heart surgery, medicine in general etc. because someone did not die to give me the chemo etc. Even blood transfusions are from living people. My question was not if we should save lives through medicine, but rather should we save lives by causing the death of another? If organ donation could be made from someone who is actually dead, then it would be great. My daughter said that there are doctors working on just that problem.

Annie

 

[Ghosty]

Ok - here is something else to think about. Do any of you remember Terri Schiavo? She was considered “brain dead” by the “medical profession” but many Catholics and other people fought long and hard for her right to live. She was being kept alive by “artificial” means. In the end, the law won. Not God’s law - man’s law. How are others who are deemed “brain dead” any different?

Annie

Terri Schiavo’s case was quite different from the kinds that would be used for organ harvesting. Terri Schiavo wasn’t technically brain dead at all, but severely brain damaged; the “brain dead” terminology was used to raise sympathy for the husband’s cause and for her murder.

When someone’s body is used for organ harvesting they are typically little more than a corpse with certain bodily functions kept going by machines (to use Thomistic terms, only the vegetative powers of the soul are operating on the body, hence the crude expression “they’re a vegetable”). They are still alive, still have their soul obviously, but their hearts aren’t even going to keep going once the machines are turned off. Essentially they are in utterly terminal condition, just given a bit of a technological boost to keep the blood flowing long enough for a healthy organ removal.

I’m not sure how the Church would rule on this matter, but I think it’s important that we know the facts so we can make a proper judgement. I can certainly see the principle of double effect coming into play here, and strongly allowing for this kind of organ donation.

Peace and God bless!

 

[CarrieH]

Are you comfortable with another deciding if you are “dead enough” to donate? I wish the answers were easier…

Well, if I’m not “dead enough” and it’s not my time to go, something or someone will intervene. If I’m in bad enough shape that I might be considered a potential candidate (and believe me, these people are in very rough shape!), why wouldn’t I want to be released from this life and look forward to the hope of heaven? I am a registered nurse with national critical care certification (CCRN) who worked in ICU for many years and took care of a number of organ donors, most of whom were severe trauma cases or cerebral hemorrhages from such things as ruptured aneurysms. Forgive me for getting graphic here, but when chunks of someone’s brain are hanging out on the pillow, or when their brain is so swollen from internal bleeding and tissue trauma that it has squished down through the hole at the base of their skull (that’s called herniation of the brainstem), I’d say that’s dead enough; there is no going back to normal functioning after a neurological disaster of those proportions. It takes a huge amount of medical intervention to keep a body like that going long enough to harvest the organs. This is because the biological mechanisms that keep the body in balance will stop once the brain activity has ceased. If you shut off the ventilator and the IV medications, they’d be “really” dead in minutes, and sometimes we can’t keep them going to the point of harvesting the organs even with all of our advanced technology. Terri Schiavo had a severe anoxic injury with areas of irreversible damage, but she had enough function that she would not have met brain-death criteria for organ donation.

Some organs require a heart-beating donor, but tissues such as bone, skin, and corneas do not. If any of you would be interested in donating something but have qualms about the brain-death thing, please at least consider tissue donation. My aunt was the recipient of corneal transplants which restored her sight, so somewhere, two generous people signed over their corneas when they were no longer of any use to their original owners.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Are you comfortable with another deciding if you are “dead enough” to donate? I wish the answers were easier…

Annie

From the Catechism:

2278 Discontinuing medical procedures that are burdensome, dangerous, extraordinary, or disproportionate to the expected outcome can be legitimate; it is the refusal of “over-zealous” treatment. Here one does not will to cause death; one’s inability to impede it is merely accepted. The decisions should be made by the patient if he is competent and able or, if not, by those legally entitled to act for the patient, whose reasonable will and legitimate interests must always be respected.

 

[Annie_B]

…

Some organs require a heart-beating donor, but tissues such as bone, skin, and corneas do not. If any of you would be interested in donating something but have qualms about the brain-death thing, please at least consider tissue donation. My aunt was the recipient of corneal transplants which restored her sight, so somewhere, two generous people signed over their corneas when they were no longer of any use to their original owners.

I agree about the tissue donation! That was a good point to make.

Annie

 

[Annie_B]

From the Catechism:

THank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I still believe that while the heart is beating - even by artificial means - the person is still alive and should not be “harvested”. As I mentioned in another post I also wish that it were possible to donate these organs AFTER physical death. One cannot be a “little bit alive” - either you are alive or you are not. As far as I am aware (and that may not be far enough ) all organ donors are ALIVE when harvested because, at this point in medical capabilities, they cannot be harvested from a dead person…

Annie

 

[vern_humphrey]

THank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I still believe that while the heart is beating - even by artificial means - the person is still alive and should not be “harvested”. As I mentioned in another post I also wish that it were possible to donate these organs AFTER physical death. One cannot be a “little bit alive” - either you are alive or you are not. As far as I am aware (and that may not be far enough ) all organ donors are ALIVE when harvested because, at this point in medical capabilities, they cannot be harvested from a dead person…

Annie

The problem is, if you are on life support, your heart will still be beating when they unplug you. Why not, then, harvest the organs before they do the unplugging?

As I said, let your last act be a gift of life to someone else. What could be more Catholic than that?

 

[Annie_B]

The problem is, if you are on life support, your heart will still be beating when they unplug you. Why not, then, harvest the organs before they do the unplugging?

As I said, let your last act be a gift of life to someone else. What could be more Catholic than that?

What about the fact that there have been cases of “unplugging” to let someone die and they did NOT die? I would hate to think that someone would have lived if their organs had not been removed. Also, there are different types of life support. When they “unplug” a feeding tube, you starve to death - you do not just die. Granted, someone in this situation would, I am guessing, not be an organ donor. I guess the point I am making is that I personally believe that organ harvesting from a living person is wrong - period. Until they are able to harvest from a person who has actually physically died, nobody in my family will donate organs. Skin, bone, eyes;yes - organs no. There are also other risks to organ donation for the person who receives. What about the recent case in the news where donated organs caused the death of some of the recipients and illness of others due to a misdiagnoses of the donor? I think that there has been a rush to harvest and donate and this rush creates an environment where mistakes can be made in many areas of the donation process. Yes, I do wish that everyone who needed an organ could get one. I just cannot justify a life for a life no matter how many arguments for donation there are…

Annie

 

[R_McGeddon]

I still believe that while the heart is beating - even by artificial means - the person is still alive and should not be “harvested”.

It is wrong to think that someone is still alive, when it is by artificial means. Those artificial means are there to enable the organs to remain healthy and viable. If organ transplants weren’t a possibility then the artificial means wouldn’t be necessary to keep organs fit for harvest.

One cannot be a “little bit alive” - either you are alive or you are not.

You’re absolutely right here, it is not the person being kept alive, it is the organs.

As far as I am aware all organ donors are ALIVE when harvested because, at this point in medical capabilities, they cannot be harvested from a dead person.

The donors are actually dead, the machines are keeping the organs alive so that they can be harvested.

You shouldn’t let the misconception of artificially alive, prevent you or anyone from giving someone else a chance of life.

 

[vern_humphrey]

What about the fact that there have been cases of “unplugging” to let someone die and they did NOT die?

What about people who were found alive when the coroner started the autopsy?

Generally, people who recover after being “unplugged” were not diagnosed as dead, but merely hopeless. Organs are not removed until the patient is dead.

As Doctor Chirstiaan Barnard said, “Death is a cellular process.” The brain may be dead quite a while before the muscles and organs learn about it. If we keep the body oxygenated, the organs remain viable and can be used to help someone else.

I would hate to think that someone would have lived if their organs had not been removed. Also, there are different types of life support. When they “unplug” a feeding tube, you starve to death - you do not just die.

No one – no one who is Catholic – would propose removing a feeding tube and allowing the patient to die of dehydration or starvation.

Granted, someone in this situation would, I am guessing, not be an organ donor. I guess the point I am making is that I personally believe that organ harvesting from a living person is wrong - period.

Is withholding life-saving treatment right?

Until they are able to harvest from a person who has actually physically died, nobody in my family will donate organs.

Organs are harvested from a person who has actually physically died. The organs are kept viable by keeping the body artificially oxygenated, but the person is dead.

Skin, bone, eyes;yes - organs no. There are also other risks to organ donation for the person who receives. What about the recent case in the news where donated organs caused the death of some of the recipients and illness of others due to a misdiagnoses of the donor?

Every medical procedure carries a risk. Even blowing your nose. But given a 100% chance of death in the next week, and a 0.01% chance of death from problem related to the transplant, which would you choose?

I think that there has been a rush to harvest and donate and this rush creates an environment where mistakes can be made in many areas of the donation process. Yes, I do wish that everyone who needed an organ could get one. I just cannot justify a life for a life no matter how many arguments for donation there are…

Annie

We have been transplanting organs for nearly 50 years now – hardly a rush. And organ donation is not “a life for a life.” Organs are taken from those already dead – and a single donor can save many people.