Should Catholics support Israel, Palestine, or take a neutral stance?

[AbideWithMe]

I’m also skeptical of why many Christians are for the establishment of Israel. There is a belief, mainly among Evangelicals, called premillennial dispensationalism which involves the rapture taking place after the establishment of the ancient land of Israel. There’s more to it but I think some see Palestine as nothing but an obstacle to this and not as human beings trying to live their lives.

“I think some see Palestine as nothing but an obstacle to this and not as human beings trying to live their lives”—Zinger, I’ve never, ever, heard this purported view from an evangelical Christian. Can you provide a source for this idea?

The well-known journalist, Martin Fletcher, recently wrote a novel called The List about Jews in England after WWII. It’s good. It might help some people understand why the establishment and maintainance of Israel seems so necessary to some Jews.

 

[kch86]

Well after reading the above post we now know that:
Israel is a place that abuses its Christian and Muslim citizens
Israel commits war crimes
Israel is a haven for Jewish criminals
Israel indiscriminately assassinates its opponents throughout the world
Israel plays the Holocaust victim card while behaving in a racist Nazi fashion to others
Jews only pretend to be Jewish for “political advantages”
God is not with the Jews

Now this is probably something you didn’t know - Jews think such statements are anti-Semitic

Well, if some of the statements above were true, would they still be anti-semitic? Am I an anti-semite in believing that Israel has indeed committed crimes by behaving in some situations unjustly towards the Arabs in the region? And wouldn’t some people’s opposition to Israel and not the Jewish people be termed something like anti-Zionism?

Are Jews wholly incapable of doing wrong that somebody who may disagree with their actions should be termed an anti-semite, which suggests that his disagreement is on the grounds of racism and that he may, to some extent, wish for the extermination of the Jews? Must the non-Jew fully embrace the policies of the Israeli state?

If I disagree with some of the policies of the Chinese government and some individual Chinese businessmen, does that somehow make me racist towards the Chinese? And even if the Chinese were to think that such beliefs on my part were racist, would I objectively be a racist? Does that mean that in order for me not to be racist and prejudiced against the Chinese, I have to become a communist?

I weakly support the existence of the state of Israel, although it would be no great loss to me if it were dissolved. And Jews themselves are no different to me than the French, the Armenians, the Vietnamese, the Kurds and the Germans. I accord all these nationalities and their collective ambitions no special treatment or consideration, either negative or positive.

But by your definition, I am somehow an anti-semite.

 

[chosen_people]

Well, if some of the statements above were true, would they still be anti-semitic? Am I an anti-semite in believing that Israel has indeed committed crimes by behaving in some situations unjustly towards the Arabs in the region? And wouldn’t some people’s opposition to Israel and not the Jewish people be termed something like anti-Zionism?

Are Jews wholly incapable of doing wrong that somebody who may disagree with their actions should be termed an anti-semite, which suggests that his disagreement is on the grounds of racism and that he may, to some extent, wish for the extermination of the Jews? Must the non-Jew fully embrace the policies of the Israeli state?

If I disagree with some of the policies of the Chinese government and some individual Chinese businessmen, does that somehow make me racist towards the Chinese? And even if the Chinese were to think that such beliefs on my part were racist, would I objectively be a racist? Does that mean that in order for me not to be racist and prejudiced against the Chinese, I have to become a communist?

I weakly support the existence of the state of Israel, although it would be no great loss to me if it were dissolved. And Jews themselves are no different to me than the French, the Armenians, the Vietnamese, the Kurds and the Germans. I accord all these nationalities and their collective ambitions no special treatment or consideration, either negative or positive.

But by your definition, I am somehow an anti-semite.

Well which of the above statements are true and what is your basis for believing that the statement is true?

You write “no special treatment or consideration, either negative or positive” toward Israel.

If so, do you think it a mere coincidence that the Jewish state:
is the only country whose very legitimacy is called into question daily,
is the only country whose destruction is called for by a member state of the UN,
is the state of a people whose three thousand year historical connection to their land is denied by so many,whose basic equal right to self determination as a people is denied by so many,
is the only country that could rush an advanced field hospital with a crack medical team to Haiti within hours of a devastating earthquake only to be accused that the aid was for harvesting transplant organs (and to have people so sick with hate as to believe it, just as they believe that the Mossad was behind 9/11 and that the Holocaust is a Jewish myth)
the only people with a two thousand year history of blood libels, of “desecrating the eucharist” of poisoning wells of causing the black plague, the only people accused of causing all the evils of capitalism, of socialism and communism, all at the same time)?

 

[GaryTaylor]

The land belongs to Israel, by population, government, military… and by God. Seems to me its their’s to do what they please with.

Personally, with their military, I’d leave them alone. They really “do” have the capacity to wipe countries off the map.

Palestine wants to “occupy” their country. And the answer is NO. Its that simple. You want someone coming to occupy your property? Right, I thought so. Israel has bent over backwards trying to “accomodate” them with their own country, the Arabs want Israel.

Christianity is dwindling not because of Israels treatment of Christians but because of war, inability to move around, thus work and earn a living. Not because of Christian persecution, that would be the Arab countries, who Israel doesn’t want in “their” country.

ISRAEL is the answer to the OP.

 

[kch86]

Well which of the above statements are true and what is your basis for believing that the statement is true?

I am not qualified to judge, although certainly, “Israel commits war crimes” may be open to debate.

The Jews are special in that they were the first people that God chose to reveal Himself to. They are not special as an ethnic group, and would in no way be special in not having their own state. Kurds don’t have an independent state either, but have a degree of autonomy in other countries. There are a multitude of ethnicities in Russia who do not have their own independent states, and are at best afforded a degree of autonomy: Buryats, Tatars, Chukchis, etc, not to mention the Uyghurs, Tibetans, Miao and other ethnic minorities of Han-dominated China, who number in the millions and who have also inhabited their respective lands for centuries if not millennia, and no doubt, some of them have suffered unfavourable treatment in the hands of others.

Should any of these ethnic groups attempt to create independent states of their own without permission of the state under whose authority they are currently under, of course they would be infringing on another’s territorial claims, of course the legitimacy of their states would be questioned daily, and of course the destruction of their states would be called for by at least one other UN member state. I understand that at least in the latter example you had Iran’s irrational hatred of the Jews in mind, but it would still be a very similar scenario.

My “weak” support for the state of Israel is because I do recognise some legitimacy to Jewish claims, but it is a problem that I am not qualified to decide one way or the other on. And as much as I refuse to accept terrorist attacks on the Jewish people, so too I will not support the Jews should they respond in a similarly unjust manner.

I’m sorry if it offends you that I accord no favourable treatment to the Jews. If Jews were discriminated against in the past and continue to be so today, it doesn’t justify me, as a non-Jew, in discriminating against other ethnicities in favour of the Jews. If that in your eyes makes me an anti-semite, so be it. However, if by that you mean I am somehow racially prejudiced against the Jews by not according them any special favour, then an anti-semite is certainly something that I objectively am not.

 

[chosen_people]

I am not qualified to judge, although certainly, “Israel commits war crimes” may be open to debate.

The Jews are special in that they were the first people that God chose to reveal Himself to. They are not special as an ethnic group, and would in no way be special in not having their own state. Kurds don’t have an independent state either, but have a degree of autonomy in other countries. There are a multitude of ethnicities in Russia who do not have their own independent states, and are at best afforded a degree of autonomy: Buryats, Tatars, Chukchis, etc, not to mention the Uyghurs, Tibetans, Miao and other ethnic minorities of Han-dominated China, who number in the millions and who have also inhabited their respective lands for centuries if not millennia, and no doubt, some of them have suffered unfavourable treatment in the hands of others.

Should any of these ethnic groups attempt to create independent states of their own without permission of the state under whose authority they are currently under, of course they would be infringing on another’s territorial claims, of course the legitimacy of their states would be questioned daily, and of course the destruction of their states would be called for by at least one other UN member state. I understand that at least in the latter example you had Iran’s irrational hatred of the Jews in mind, but it would still be a very similar scenario.

My “weak” support for the state of Israel is because I do recognise some legitimacy to Jewish claims, but it is a problem that I am not qualified to decide one way or the other on. And as much as I refuse to accept terrorist attacks on the Jewish people, so too I will not support the Jews should they respond in a similarly unjust manner.

I’m sorry if it offends you that I accord no favourable treatment to the Jews. If Jews were discriminated against in the past and continue to be so today, it doesn’t justify me, as a non-Jew, in discriminating against other ethnicities in favour of the Jews. If that in your eyes makes me an anti-semite, so be it. However, if by that you mean I am somehow racially prejudiced against the Jews by not according them any special favour, then an anti-semite is certainly something that I objectively am not.

Well because of Catholic history of persecuting Jews for some two thousand years, seemingly there are few groups who should be more aware of the need and justification of the State of Israel and more sympathetic to the Jewish state. If Jedwabne Poland July 10, 1941 or Bzury Poland 1941 or Kielce Poland July 4, 1946 or the Finaly Brothers affair February 1945 - 1953, Fr. Coughlin and Catholic hate radio, Fr. Fahey and “Jewish naturalism”, Fr. Feeney and the Point magazine, The plot against the Church by “Maurice Pinay”, Sugeneris,Sorban,Buchanan,Bishop Williamson, Professor Kevin MacDonald, libel charges of genocide and libel charges of apartheid and libel charges of organ harvesting are not enough to convince you as a Catholic and as a human being as to the need and justification of the Jewish state,than nothing I can say will help except to inform you “never again” will we Jews allow ourselves to be passive victims of religious and racial hate.If you study the short span of the less than 65 years since we regained our re independence over Homeland, you will discover that we have become an academic, scientific and technological super power. The more forces of evil seek our destruction, the stronger God makes us, the more contributions we make to all mankind, the stronger those countries that are good to their Jews and supportive of Israel become.

 

[kch86]

Well because of Catholic history of persecuting Jews for some two thousand years, seemingly there are few groups who should be more aware of the need and justification of the State of Israel and more sympathetic to the Jewish state. If Jedwabne Poland July 10, 1941 or Bzury Poland 1941 or Kielce Poland July 4, 1946 or the Finaly Brothers affair February 1945 - 1953, Fr. Coughlin and Catholic hate radio, Fr. Fahey and “Jewish naturalism”, Fr. Feeney and the Point magazine, The plot against the Church by “Maurice Pinay”, Sugeneris,Sorban,Buchanan,Bishop Williamson, Professor Kevin MacDonald, libel charges of genocide and libel charges of apartheid and libel charges of organ harvesting are not enough to convince you as a Catholic and as a human being as to the need and justification of the Jewish state,than nothing I can say will help except to inform you “never again” will we Jews allow ourselves to be passive victims of religious and racial hate.If you study the short span of the less than 65 years since we regained our re independence over Homeland, you will discover that we have become an academic, scientific and technological super power. The more forces of evil seek our destruction, the stronger God makes us, the more contributions we make to all mankind, the stronger those countries that are good to their Jews and supportive of Israel become.

The history of persecution against the Jews and their unjust treatment by Catholic and non-Catholic alike in the past and to this day do not in any way justify any favourable treatment, nor does it justify any Jew who may commit a crime against another person.

Let me reiterate that: no crime against the Jews will ever convince me, as a Catholic, that the Jews are themselves justified in committing crime.

As to the question of whether a Jewish State should exist, as I have already stated, based on my limited knowledge, I do to some degree support its existence, but I have no strong opinion on the matter because the problem is distant to me, and whatever my opinion, the result is always the same: I will support Israel when it does right, and I will oppose Israel when it does wrong.

 

[GEddie]

The stateless nationalities you refer to in the CCCP, China, Kurdistan, etc, have always had a patch of square mileage to call their own. No, they do not have national sovereignty, in no small part because of the territorial machinations of the great powers during the 1900s. But if anybody tried to push them aside territorially, they’d have a fight on their hands. Chechnya, 1995, Iraqi Kurdistan, 1992, anybody?

None of these groups have been scattered over the nations and systematically persecuted in all of them as the Jews have.

And while there is no serious effort going to create a sovereign Kurdistan, etc, Israel has been willing to allow a Palestine state. It just won’t give up it’s security in doing so. In fact, the UN partition of 1947 would have created one, had the war of 1948 not begun.

Long live Israel. May the Palestine state soon form next to it.

ICXC NIKA

 

[kch86]

The stateless nationalities you refer to in the CCCP, China, Kurdistan, etc, have always had a patch of square mileage to call their own. No, they do not have national sovereignty, in no small part because of the territorial machinations of the great powers during the 1900s. But if anybody tried to push them aside territorially, they’d have a fight on their hands. Chechnya, 1995, Iraqi Kurdistan, 1992, anybody?

I have no interest in arguing whether Israel should or shouldn’t exist. I already stated that I do support its continued existence.

And I will lend it my support insofar as what it does is good, and will oppose it when what it does is evil.

No particular circumstances of any ethnic group will ever convince me that I should for whatever reason support evil when I see it.

If evil is done, no matter what the circumstances, no matter who does it, I will oppose it.

 

[GEddie]

I have no interest in arguing whether Israel should or shouldn’t exist. I already stated that I do support its continued existence.

And I will lend it my support insofar as what it does is good, and will oppose it when what it does is evil.

No particular circumstances of any ethnic group will ever convince me that I should for whatever reason support evil when I see it.

If evil is done, no matter what the circumstances, no matter who does it, I will oppose it.

Fair enough.

Hopefully, that also extends to evil done by your own nation? Sovereign nations, after all, are amoral entities.

God Bless, ICXC NIKA.

 

[kch86]

Hopefully, that also extends to evil done by your own nation?

Absolutely. I shall oppose evil in any form done by any nation, including my own. God bless.

 

[Credo_ergo_sum]

My sympathies are with the Palestinian Christians first and foremost.

Best comment in this thread.

 

[AbideWithMe]

…are not enough to convince you as a Catholic and as a human being as to the need and justification of the Jewish state,than nothing I can say will help except to inform you “never again” will we Jews allow ourselves to be passive victims of religious and racial hate.

While I do sympathize with those Palestinian Christians who have been caught in the middle in some cases…still, “never again” =I support Israel as a Jewish state because I believe they have the greatest need.

 

[GEddie]

One also has to consider whether Palestinian Christians – a small minority – would be better off in a state led by Palestinian Muslims, or Israeli Jews?

It’s not clear to me, nor should it be to anybody else who does not live there.

 

[AbideWithMe]

One also has to consider whether Palestinian Christians – a small minority – would be better off in a state led by Palestinian Muslims, or Israeli Jews?

It’s not clear to me, nor should it be to anybody else who does not live there.

chosen people—

Do you have any thoughts on this?

 

[scipio337]

One also has to consider whether Palestinian Christians – a small minority – would be better off in a state led by Palestinian Muslims, or Israeli Jews?

It’s not clear to me, nor should it be to anybody else who does not live there.

I would say it would depend on who that leadership is, but judging by the treatment of Christians in other Muslim majority nations, I have my reservations.

Lebanon is a good example of the two faiths sharing power, but it has a pretty unique constitition that rules that the President must be a Maronite Christian, the Speaker of Parliament must be a Shi’a Muslim, and the Prime Minister a Sunni Muslim.

I’m not sure a Muslim majority Palestinian Arab state would provide that type of participation.

 

[chosen_people]

chosen people—

Do you have any thoughts on this?

The plight of all Christians throughout the Middle East, with the exception of Israel, is well known. The only place in the Middle East where the Christian population has grown and not been drastically reduced, the only place where Christians enjoy full civil and legal rights, where laws ensure full freedom of worship and religious practice, is in Israel and in areas controlled by Israel.

online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203960804577239923033348982.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

 

[kch86]

The plight of all Christians throughout the Middle East, with the exception of Israel, is well known. The only place in the Middle East where the Christian population has grown and not been drastically reduced, the only place where Christians enjoy full civil and legal rights, where laws ensure full freedom of worship and religious practice, is in Israel and in areas controlled by Israel.

online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203960804577239923033348982.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

I agree, and this is one other reason why I do support Israel to a degree. The Catholic Patriarch of Jerusalem, Fouad Twal, has, however, complained about discrimination against Arab Christians and Arabs in general by the Israeli authorities, and to the extent that that may be true, things are in need of improvement.

 

[chosen_people]

I agree, and this is one other reason why I do support Israel to a degree. The Catholic Patriarch of Jerusalem, Fouad Twal, has, however, complained about discrimination against Arab Christians and Arabs in general by the Israeli authorities, and to the extent that that may be true, things are in need of improvement.

I think that a country that has a Christian Arab Supreme Court judge, a country whose former president was judged and found guilty by a District Court Christian Arab Judge, a country that has Arab representatives in its foreign service, an army with Christian (and Muslim) Arabs volunteers, Arab members of Knesset, full educational and employment opportunities for Arabs, a country that made Arabic an official language of the Jewish State and has Arabic on every public sign, does not have a problem of discrimination by “Israeli authorities”. Does that mean that there is no individual discrimination by other individuals? I’m sure that just as a Jew living in the United States could point to incidents of anti-Semitism, Israeli Arabs can no doubt point to incidents by individuals where they feel that they have been discriminated against. However, you have only to walk into a hospital, or a restaurant a theater or cinema or a park, to see that all citizens live together under equal protection of the law. The problems arise concerning security matters. However, the enmity and animosity is not coming from the Jewish side toward our Arab neighbors with whom we fervently wish to live in peace and prosperity. We just would like not to be stabbed or blown up for being Jews.

 

[kch86]

I think that a country that has a Christian Arab Supreme Court judge, a country whose former president was judged and found guilty by a District Court Christian Arab Judge, a country that has Arab representatives in its foreign service, an army with Christian (and Muslim) Arabs volunteers, Arab members of Knesset, full educational and employment opportunities for Arabs, a country that made Arabic an official language of the Jewish State and has Arabic on every public sign, does not have a problem of discrimination by “Israeli authorities”. Does that mean that there is no individual discrimination by other individuals? I’m sure that just as a Jew living in the United States could point to incidents of anti-Semitism, Israeli Arabs can no doubt point to incidents by individuals where they feel that they have been discriminated against. However, you have only to walk into a hospital, or a restaurant a theater or cinema or a park, to see that all citizens live together under equal protection of the law. The problems arise concerning security matters. However, the enmity and animosity is not coming from the Jewish side toward our Arab neighbors with whom we fervently wish to live in peace and prosperity. We just would like not to be stabbed or blown up for being Jews.

I understand and I hope that your wish will be granted.