Should Chief Justice Anthony Kennedy be excommunicated?

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Excommunicated for doing his job and interpreting the Constitution and civil laws written as he sees them to be even when Catholics don’t agree with his interpretation? His employment is as a juctice of the SCOTUS. He is not employed in a Vatican or Church position.
But he is still a Catholic and that means he is required to follow Church Teaching in all matters which includes Same Sex Marriage. He is suppose to use Church Teaching in influencing his decisions whether they are personal or official. This applies to all Catholics.
 
Some punctuation, an additional name, or something is needed in this thread’s title.

The Chief Justice is John Roberts. Anthony Kennedy is an associate justice. Both are Catholics by reputation and baptismal technicalities (HOW Catholic they really are otherwise: Sunday Mass +/-, Daily Communicants?, Mass at all? Accepting of all teachings?) I don’t really know.

The Church is more inclined to go after the wandering 100th sheep (per philosophy) than to Excommunicate it seems. That first part, done without zeal lapses pretty quickly unto sloth or a “Little Bo Peep” method of shepherding … “Leave 'em alone, and they’ll come home …wagging their tails behind them”.

Excommunication done “right” is actually to wake UP the mortal sinner more than for the Church or a Bishop to flex his power. As it applies to a Catholic in the midst of giving public scandal … or misleading part of the flock per doctrine … that has its effect on the Church as a whole - it MIGHT be done as making an example of the “perp”, yet even then, with an eye for that person to make corrections and return penitently - and not to consign them to hell. < THAT is not the Church’s job - which is why she has named many saints, but has never by name certified that “so and so is certainly in hell”. < And not even when the Church denied rites of funeral and holy ground to notorious criminals (for example - some “gangsters” in were denied such things, though a lot of money might have been offered to make the Church a part of the “show”.

The list of who has been excommunicated from the Church over the years is interesting … and not that long. Some of them were not found to be valid, other times the excommunicated one was able to return to the Church in good standing. And the Church reviews these … St. Joan of Arc’s excommunication was not only set aside, but the detailed examination of her life led eventually to her canonization.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_excommunicated_by_the_Roman_Catholic_Church
 
Excommunicated for doing his job and interpreting the Constitution and civil laws written as he sees them to be even when Catholics don’t agree with his interpretation? His employment is as a juctice of the SCOTUS. He is not employed in a Vatican or Church position.
I believe he would be excommunicated for publicly espousing views contrary to Church teaching. His employment is irrelevant.
 
But he is still a Catholic and that means he is required to follow Church Teaching in all matters which includes Same Sex Marriage. He is suppose to use Church Teaching in influencing his decisions whether they are personal or official. This applies to all Catholics.
So, once the US has an Islamic supreme court justice, he is supposed to follow the Qu’ran and not the US Constitution???
 
So, once the US has an Islamic supreme court justice, he is supposed to follow the Qu’ran and not the US Constitution???
Good point.

Incidentally, correcting an earlier poster, Turkey is a secular state.
 
In Muslim countries, most judges will not stray from Islamic teaching.
But I thought americans did not want their leaders to promote a particular religion. So if there were three muslims or momons or jews on the bench (which may be a possibility in the future) would you expect their religion to guide their interpretation of the law?
 
But I thought americans did not want their leaders to promote a particular religion. So if there were three muslims or momons or jews on the bench (which may be a possibility in the future) would you expect their religion to guide their interpretation of the law?
I don’t see how that can be avoided.
 
Well I suppose that can be his defense when standing before God.
Maybe. I try not to limit God so I suppose God could understand the difference between Catholic teaching and what civil law may sometimes have to be in a plural nation. I certainly believe God knows Justice Kennedy’s heart, mind, thought process, and soul.
 
Objectively speaking, both “Justice” Kennedy and “Justice” Sotomayor are already excommunicated latae sententiae.
Even if so, are you aware according to Church teaching that even excommunication does not take away that they are Catholics.
 
So, once the US has an Islamic supreme court justice, he is supposed to follow the Qu’ran and not the US Constitution???
This is why society depends on the people doing the right thing and not nominating an Islamic justice.

Or a Catholic monarchy that won’t lead the people too astray.
 
Of course not. Constitutional cluelessness is not an excommunicable offense. It just provides fodder for Justice Scalia’s sometimes caustic barbs.
 
Of course not.

First of all, Justice Kennedy is not now, never has been, and probably never will be a lawmaker. Congress makes laws. His role as a Supreme Court justice is to interpret the laws that Congress has enacted. Now, many would dispute that he and four other justices have made it a routine habit to make law (and I would agree). But, technically speaking, all the SCOTUS can do is interpret law. Even if one does not personally agree with a particular law, his role as a justice is to interpret it.

St. Thomas Moore once said, and this is only a paraphrase, not an exact quote, that he would side with the devil himself if the devil had the correct position according to the law. To use an example, if a lower court justice upheld some legal challenge to abortion on the basis that Roe is still the law of the land, would he/she be sinning? I would argue no. Why? Because like it or not, Roe is still the law of the land, and a lower court justice is duty-bound to uphold it. Don’t like it, as I don’t? Change the law.

So, Justice Kennedy’s first duty is not to enforce Catholic morality. It’s to interpret the law of the land. Like it or not, he and four of his colleagues have determined that the Constitution has within it an implied right to same-sex marriage. I strongly, vehemently, disagree. I think it is not only a faulty legal decision, but also contrary to natural law.

However, we get on a very slippery slope, that will ultimately do more harm than good, if we have a litmus test for justices based on how well they will uphold and defend Catholic teaching. That’s your and my job to do, not Justice Kennedy’s. Did he fail at properly interpreting the law? I, and four other colleagues of his, say yes. Most reading this probably also would say “yes.” However, that in itself is not an excommunicable offense.
 
So, once the US has an Islamic supreme court justice, he is supposed to follow the Qu’ran and not the US Constitution???
Of course the Court Justices must follow the US Constitution i am not saying they shouldn’t but as a Catholic you must follow Church Teaching. Also if there is a Muslim Court Justice then i don’t see anything wrong with them following their faiths teaching provided that they stay within the Constitution.

The fact is Justice Kennedy and any other Catholic Justice must stay inline with Church Teaching like Chief Justice Roberts did and this applies in all Church Teachings. That means on other rulings they make for example on the death penalty or on medical care must be within Church Teaching.
 
Of course the Court Justices must follow the US Constitution i am not saying they shouldn’t but as a Catholic you must follow Church Teaching. Also if there is a Muslim Court Justice then i don’t see anything wrong with them following their faiths teaching provided that they stay within the Constitution.

The fact is Justice Kennedy and any other Catholic Justice must stay inline with Church Teaching like Chief Justice Roberts did and this applies in all Church Teachings. That means on other rulings they make for example on the death penalty or on medical care must be within Church Teaching.
I’d be careful how you word that. It almost seems to imply a theocracy. Human law isn’t based on Church teaching. In an ideal world, it’s based on natural law. Now, again, in an ideal world, those would be one in the same, as Church teaching, too, is based on natural law.

But, again, a justice is duty bound to uphold the law, not uphold what he or she wishes the law to be.

It’s vital that we, and the rest of society, understand that opposition to same-sex marriage is NOT based on anything Jesus said or didn’t say, it’s NOT based on anything the Scriptures say or don’t say, and it’s NOT based on anything the Church teaches or doesn’t teach. Same-sex marriage isn’t wrong because the Church says so. Rather, the Church says so because it’s wrong.

I get the logic that elected officials have to “uphold Church teaching,” but I think that this mentality has, in large part, led us to where we’re at. Here’s how the argument typically goes.

Premise 1: My faith tells me I’m supposed to be opposed to same-sex marriage.
Premise 2: But, others don’t share my faith.
Premise 3: And I can’t impose my faith on others.
Conclusion: Therefore, I must support same-sex marriage even though my faith tells me it is wrong.

What’s the problem with the argument? Most well-meaning Catholics, I think, want to attack Premise 2 or 3. We might say that others SHOULD share our faith…the old line, “Error has no rights.” (The height of arrogance, I might add, but not pertinent to the overall point.) Or, we might say that since our faith is the fullness of truth that we SHOULD impose it on others. Again, quite arrogant.

Rather, the weakness of the argument is Premise 1. Yes, our faith DOES tell us that we are to oppose same-sex marriage, but NOT because of our faith. Rather, our faith affirms that which we already know by reason. And this is what natural law is–nothing more than the ability to use our brains. I think this is the error that Kennedy makes. You and he both start with the same first premise. But, he comes to the conclusion that he can’t impose that faith on others.

So, what’s the solution? Try this argument:

Premise 1: Men and women have demonstrable differences within their respective reproductive systems.
Premise 2: The reproductive differences only makes sense in light of the other sex.
Conclusion: Therefore, due to this sexual difference, marriage ought to be between one man and one woman.

It’s stronger and doesn’t get into the messiness of a theocratic imposition of moral law.

And notice, it’s based, really, on the parts the distinguish us as male and female, not whether or not those respective parts work. Because if we base the argument solely on the ability to reproduce, the other side is quite right to challenge us on cases of couples who are past the fertile age, a man who has had his testicles removed due to testicular cancer, a woman who has had her ovaries removed due to ovarian cancer, etc.

In other words, it’s not about the ability to reproduce, it’s about what parts you have down below. It’s sad that we even have to articulate this, but we really are at a point where we have to spell it out for people that men have penises, and women have vaginas. Apart from each other, they make no sense, but in light of each other, they make total sense.
 
Even if so, are you aware according to Church teaching that even excommunication does not take away that they are Catholics.
I think most Catholics on here are aware that excommunication does not stop them from being Catholic. Someone who is excommunicated still must attend Mass every Sunday, fast and abstain on required days, and perform penance on Fridays.

Could you please explain why you are making this point? I don’t understand the context of you post, and I’m sure others do not either.

Excommunication is an attempt to save their souls by giving them “tough love” so they come back in line with the teachings of the Church.

The question is: do these two Baptized Catholic Justices attend Mass every Sunday or not? If they don’t, an excommunication will most likely do no good.

Plus, excommunication are not done to make an example out of someone. Meaning the Church will not excommunicate them in order to make a point. They will excommunicate them only if they feel the excommunication would bring them back to the Church.

As an aside: the only major Catholic politician I know of where I think an excommunication MIGHT do some good is Nancy Pelosi. If her Catholic faith is as important as she claims it is, an excommunication might be good thing for her. However, I personally do not know her. I’m not her pastor nor her bishop. I’ve never met her personally not any other pro-choice/pro-SSM Catholic democrat in public office.

Lord Jesus, we pray for our all of our Catholic leaders who have strayed from Church teaching and all other Catholics who have strayed, like my siblings and father. May they seek wisdom and gain understanding through Your Grace. We pray this in Your Name. Amen.
 
I’d be careful how you word that. It almost seems to imply a theocracy. Human law isn’t based on Church teaching. In an ideal world, it’s based on natural law. Now, again, in an ideal world, those would be one in the same, as Church teaching, too, is based on natural law.

But, again, a justice is duty bound to uphold the law, not uphold what he or she wishes the law to be.

It’s vital that we, and the rest of society, understand that opposition to same-sex marriage is NOT based on anything Jesus said or didn’t say, it’s NOT based on anything the Scriptures say or don’t say, and it’s NOT based on anything the Church teaches or doesn’t teach. Same-sex marriage isn’t wrong because the Church says so. Rather, the Church says so because it’s wrong.

I get the logic that elected officials have to “uphold Church teaching,” but I think that this mentality has, in large part, led us to where we’re at. Here’s how the argument typically goes.

Premise 1: My faith tells me I’m supposed to be opposed to same-sex marriage.
Premise 2: But, others don’t share my faith.
Premise 3: And I can’t impose my faith on others.
Conclusion: Therefore, I must support same-sex marriage even though my faith tells me it is wrong.


What’s the problem with the argument? Most well-meaning Catholics, I think, want to attack Premise 2 or 3. We might say that others SHOULD share our faith…the old line, “Error has no rights.” (The heigh of arrogance, I might add, but not pertinent to the overall point.) Or, we might say that since our faith is the fullness of truth that we SHOULD impose it on others. Again, quite arrogant.

Rather, the weakness of the argument is Premise 1. Yes, our faith DOES tell us that we are to oppose same-sex marriage, but NOT because of our faith. Rather, our faith affirms that which we already know by reason. I think this is the error that Kennedy makes. You and he both start with the same first premise. But, he comes to the conclusion that he can’t impose that faith on others.

So, what’s the solution? Try this argument:

Premise 1: Men and women have demonstrable differences within their respective reproductive systems.
Premise 2: The reproductive differences only makes sense in light of the other sex.
Conclusion: Therefore, due to this sexual difference, marriage ought to be between one man and one woman.

It’s stronger and doesn’t get into the messiness of a theocratic imposition of moral law.
I will tell you why this argument is wrong. When we vote for public officials, their religious views are IMPORTANT to the voters. Their religious views should give the voters an insight into how they would vote on touchy issues regarding morality, ethics, values, etc.

When a politicians votes AGAINIST the way people anticipated their votes, it undermines the representative democratic system. In representative democracy and a republic, we vote for people who we believe will most likely vote the way we would want them to vote on issues. We use all the information we have at that time to do so, which includes their religion. That is why it’s not uncommon for politicians to be asked questions about their faith during a campaign.

Furthermore, an elected OR appointed official should NEVER be forced to vote against his/her own conscience. They have the right to obtain when needed. If politicians cannot be trusted to be faithful to his/her own conscience and/or faith, then how can he/she be trusted to not sell out to special interests.

Politicians (whether Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Atheist, etc) should NOT be expected to check their personal believes at the door. Their personal beliefs are part of who they are and their character, which is how we elect officials.
 
I will tell you why this argument is wrong. When we vote for public officials, their religious views are IMPORTANT to the voters. Their religious views should give the voters an insight into how they would vote on touchy issues regarding morality, ethics, values, etc.

When a politicians votes AGAINIST the way people anticipated their votes, it undermines the representative democratic system. In representative democracy and a republic, we vote for people who we believe will most likely vote the way we would want them to vote on issues. We use all the information we have at that time to do so, which includes their religion. That is why it’s not uncommon for politicians to be asked questions about their faith during a campaign.

Furthermore, an elected OR appointed official should NEVER be forced to vote against his/her own conscience. They have the right to obtain when needed. If politicians cannot be trusted to be faithful to his/her own conscience and/or faith, then how can he/she be trusted to not sell out to special interests.

Politicians (whether Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Atheist, etc) should NOT be expected to check their personal believes at the door. Their personal beliefs are part of who they are and their character, which is how we elect officials.
I never said they weren’t. Certainly an ELECTED official ought to take the teachings of his/her faith with him when voting, as we should when voting.

But, this thread is specifically about an APPOINTED justice, whose job it is to INTERPRET, not make, law, and that’s a key distinction. The biggest complaint against the court is that they make up laws as they see fit. This cuts both ways. We don’t get to like it when they make up a law that happens to agree with our side and then turn around and criticize when they make up a law that disagrees with where we are. Again, if you don’t like it, then change the law.

And again, this is a separate question from whether or not I think Justice Kennedy and the other four who sided with him erred in their judicial decision making. I do think they erred. I think it’s a terrible decision judicially speaking that will have far reaching, unintended, consequences. I think it’s a decision grounded more on feeling and emotion than sound judicial reasoning. But to say that Justice Kennedy should have ruled one way based off a tenet of his faith ignores what his job is. Another tenet of his faith is that we ought to uphold the oaths we take. To not do so is a violation of the second commandment. As I read this thread, what I’m seeing are people more or less advocating that Justice Kennedy subvert his oath of office due to a teaching of his faith. I’m proposing that we stop looking at opposition to same-sex marriage as a teaching of the Church and start looking at it from the point of view of natural law. Otherwise, those who accuse us of trying to impose a theocracy are correct.
 
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