Should Christians Reunite?

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mtr01:
I agree, kind of, with this statement. I also hope for unity, but not “conversion” to Roman Catholicism (unless of course, you equate “Roman” with being in union with the Pope). For example, Eastern Catholic Churches are certainly Catholic, but not Roman. For me, I want the Orthodox to come back into communion with Rome (without becoming “Roman Catholic”) while keeping their own identity and traditions, but with acceptance of correct doctrine, of course.

I suppose in the case of Protestants, however, it would be more of a “reversion” as the vast majority of their traditions were derived from the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church.
That is correct. Eastern Catholics who are in union with Rome are already Catholics, so “conversion” or “reunion” are totally unnecessary. I also agree with you with regards the eastern Orthodox Churches. In their case, it would be better to speak of reunion, rather than conversion.

Gerry 🙂
 
So, you disregard the quotes I provided from the Dictionary in favor of an article writen by Colin Donovan, which is not even directly addressing the issue.

The following is taken from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

**“The repudiated sense was that dear to many Protestants, according to which the term Catholic was a genus which resolved itself into the species Roman Catholic, Anglo-Catholic, Greek Catholic, etc. But, as the cardinal insisted, “with us the prefix Roman is not restrictive to a species, or a section, but simply declaratory of Catholic.” The prefix in this sense draws attention to the unity of the Church, and “insists that the central point of Catholicity is Roman, the Roman See of St. Peter.” (The Catholic Encyclopedia)”.

**Compare that with this definition I first gave:
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RSiscoe:
It is called Roman Catholicism because Rome is the principal See that unites the various Rites of the Church – it is the center and heart of the Church.
So far, two dictionary’s and the Catholic Encyclopedia have said that the term Roman Catholic refers to those Catholics who are unitd to the Pope - the Bishop of Rome - recognizing him as the head of the Church,

Are you united to the Pope? and do you recognize him as the head of the Church? If so, according to the definition you are a Roman Catholic of the Byzantine Rite.
 
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mjf150:
Do you believe that the various Christians Faiths of the world should strive for unity?
Why not… Isn’t that what Our Lord prayed for…“That they all may be one”?
 
My dear brother or sister Rsiscoe,

I fear that our side discussion here has escalated to the point where we run the risk of having hijacked this thread away from its stated intent. This is not fair to those who have legitimate (name removed by moderator)ut related to this thread’s original topic. My apologies to all for my part in this departure.

I’ll tell you what - in the interest of unity and fairness to others, I hereby publically state that I will allow you to call me whatever it is your li’l heart desires, regardless of that title’s accuracy vis a vis my sui iuris Church affiliation, and I’ll accept your chosen title without further argument. Please note that I speak for myself only… other Eastern Catholics on this board may still request of you that you show the respect that their place within our Holy Mother Church deserves by at least referring to them in proper, accurate terms. You’ll have to take that up individually with them.

I, however, will not push the issue further with you.

If the only way you are able to recognize and accept the fact that my own Catholicity is the same as yours, that we are truly Catholic brothers (or brother and sister, whichever you are) who share a common faith, is by attaching the supurfluous and, indeed, inaccurate word “Roman” to the correct name of my Church… if that’s all it takes to settle the feathers that my Eastern Catholicism obviously managed to ruffle with regard to your view of what our Catholic Church should be, then by all means go fot it, my friend! Call me what you wish!

I do owe you a debt of gratitude, however. My original post in this thread (#23) was intended to illustrate the point that as Catholics seeking unity, we must be willing to accept the fact that the dogmas we hold as Articles of Faith can, and undoubtedly will, be expressed in many different ways, without altering the fundamental dogma itself. We must be willing to accept that theological expressions and viewpoints other than the traditional “Roman” viewpoint can be, and indeed are, just as valid as those espoused by the Church of the West.

You and your posts have managed to illustrate just how daunting a task this can be. Your insistance on attaching the word “Roman” to the title of all Churches and individuals who share our Catholic faith, as though Roman Catholicism were the only Catholicism, created for us all a text book illustration of just how powerful the destructive forces of pride and sense of superiority can be.

… this, after only getting as far as discussing names! We’ve not even touched on dogmas and Articles of Faith, and already we see a brick wall of Roman resistance!

…and I’m a* Catholic!* I’m already on your team! Gotta wonder how you’d have treated me were I not a Catholic!

…gotta wonder, too, if you even truly believe that I and my Church are really Catholic…

I pray that our Church’s efforts at unity are not stifled by the attitudes of pompous superiority and “tunnel vision” you’ve displayed to us all in this thread. The deep respect and love I have for my Catholic brothers and sisters of the West, however, leads me to trust that you are the exception, and not the rule.

Mnohaja i blahaja l’ita, my friend!

a pilgrim

(…who, for purposes of this discussion, will refer to himself as a Byzantine Roman(?) Catholic…) :rolleyes:

(…ahem… hey, whatever…)
 
Now, now “a pilgrim”, no need to speak to me that way. Let’s review the initial exchange between us to see if my tone was one of “pompous superiority”.
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RSiscoe:
It is called Roman Catholicism because Rome is the principal See that unites the various Rites of the Church – it is the center and heart of the Church.
A pilgrim:
Our faith is oficially called “Catholicism,” not “Roman Catholicism.” The adjective “Roman” is only appropriate when referring to the practices of the Church of the West. As I said in my post, there are also 22 Churches of the East, each one in full communion with the See of Peter, for which the term “Roman” does not apply. To imply that all Catholics must be Roman Catholics is simply untrue.
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RSiscoe:
The Roman Catholic Church consists of the Roman Rite and other Rites in union with Rome.
a pilgrim:
Again, this is incorrect. A more accurate rewording of this statement would be "The Catholic
Church consists of the Roman, or Latin, Catholic Church and 22 Eastern Catholic Churches in union with Rome." Please note that I specifically use the word “Church” as opposed to the word “Rite.” The word “rite” refers to the individual liturgical tradition by which each of the 23 Catholic Churches express their faith. While many of these Churches may share a common “rite,” each is a distinct “Church” in union with the See of Peter.
I simply corrected your mistaken understanding of the word Roman Catholic. You then disregarded what the dictionary said and quoted something that did not directly address the issue. Then, when I provided more facts to support what I was saying, you pretend to “rise above” such a petty argument by saying “I will allow you to call me whatever it is your li’l heart desires, regardless of that title’s accuracy vis a vis my sui iuris Church affiliation”.

But the issue is not what I want to call you… but rather, the fact that the Roman Catholic Church consists of all the Churches united to Rome, and not only the Roman Rite. Why not simply concede that you were in wrong, rather than talk down to someone? Could it be that your pride got in the way, and rather than admit you were wrong, you decided to pretend to “rise above” such a petty argument, by allowing me to “call you what my lil heart desires”?
 
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RSiscoe:
But the issue is not what I want to call you… but rather, the fact that the Roman Catholic Church consists of all the Churches united to Rome, and not only the Roman Rite. Why not simply concede that you were in wrong, rather than talk down to someone? Could it be that your pride got in the way, and rather than admit you were wrong, you decided to pretend to “rise above” such a petty argument, by allowing me to “call you what my lil heart desires”?
Dear RSiscoe,

I think it’s just a matter of semantics. The Eastern Catholic Churches are in union with Rome. You are correct. But a Byzantine Catholic does not belong to the Byzantine Roman Catholic Church. They belong to the Byzantine Catholic Church which is in union with Rome. Pilgrim is also correct. Play nice now! 🙂
 
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Mickey:
Dear RSiscoe,

I think it’s just a matter of semantics. The Eastern Catholic Churches are in union with Rome. You are correct. But a Byzantine Catholic does not belong to the Byzantine Roman Catholic Church. They belong to the Byzantine Catholic Church which is in union with Rome. Pilgrim is also correct. Play nice now! 🙂
I agree that it is a pretty petty matter, and I was not completely certain about it myself, so I don’t fault “a pilgrim” for not understanding the term. But after consulting a priest, and doing some reading on the subject, it was confirmed that the term Roman Catholic refers to all of the Churches, or Rites (east and west) who are united to the Church of Rome.

The Catholic Encyclopedia said that the term Roman Catholic was used to distinguish between the Protestants and Anglicans who also called themselves “catholics”. The term Roman Catholic was used to describe true Catholics from heretics and Schismatics who were using the name, and it referred to ALL Catholic Churches that were in union with the Church of Rome - the principle See of the Church.

“a pilgrim” may have bee confusing the term “Roman Catholic Church”, with the Roman Church. It is true that a Byzantine Catholic is not a member of the Roman Church, but they are a member of the Roman Catholic Church - that is, the universal (catholic) Church whose principle See is Rome.
 
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RSiscoe:
I agree that it is a pretty petty matter, and I was not completely certain about it myself, so I don’t fault “a pilgrim” for not understanding the term. But after consulting a priest, and doing some reading on the subject, it was confirmed that the term Roman Catholic refers to all of the Churches, or Rites (east and west) who are united to the Church of Rome.

The Catholic Encyclopedia said that the term Roman Catholic was used to distinguish between the Protestants and Anglicans who also called themselves “catholics”. The term Roman Catholic was used to describe true Catholics from heretics and Schismatics who were using the name, and it referred to ALL Catholic Churches that were in union with the Church of Rome - the principle See of the Church.

“a pilgrim” may have bee confusing the term “Roman Catholic Church”, with the Roman Church. It is true that a Byzantine Catholic is not a member of the Roman Church, but they are a member of the Roman Catholic Church - that is, the universal (catholic) Church whose principle See is Rome.
:amen:
 
Although it may have been, in the distant past, correct and INDICATIVE to simply say one is “Catholic”, it is not always INDICATIVE today, or even in the last 400 years.
Why?
Because there are other sects that have copped the name. We forgot to copyright it!
Therefore, “Roman Catholic” is now INDICATIVE without any ambiguity. Period.
IF one wants to stay INDICATIVE and belongs to a particular proud rite in Roman Catholicism, then including the INDICATVE “RITE” suffces.
One can then simply say "xxxxx Rite Catholic. That is INDICATIVE of belonging to the Roman Catholic Church without having to affirm that one is faithful to the See of Rome…blah blah.
In Summary:
EITHER of 2 words are still INDICATIVE without ambiguity, and will get your MARTYRDOM the quickest:
  1. ROMAN C.
  2. xx RITE C.
ROMAN is the HOUSE
RITE is a ROOM. of the HOUSE, and is ALWAYS, to this day INDICATIVE of the HOUSE in which the room abides.
I do not foresee that “RITE” will be copped as “catholic” was because it strongly implies an overriding Authority *who gave a *“RITE”. No other group, to this day, honors an overriding authority that gives a “RITE” within that group.
Some day the Anglican “USE” or “PRIVILEGE” may become a RITE. Then we would say “Anglican RITE”, which would indeed be INDICATIVE, even though it is attached to an historical sect word.

Simply "Catholic is no longer always INDICATIVE without ambiguity, and has not been for a very long time.
 
Of course, eventually you’d hope that all denominations would return to full communion with the Catholic Church one day (like the Eastern Rite Churches), that’s what true ecumenism is about.
 
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serendipity:
I realize how selfish I am when I see this poll. Yes, I think it is important to reunite, but I am not willing to cede or amend most of the essential beliefs that keep us divided, like the Communion of Saints (no way will I put Mary in a closet) or vitality of sacraments. I don’t want the mass to be watered down to just another prayer service. Nor do I recognize the abridged Bible as a valid doctrine of scripture or that revelations of faith are only in a book, because that makes faith dead in my opinion. In fact, maybe the only areas of compromise that my conscience could accept is the role of the Pope and the ability of clergy to marry.
I agree with everything that is said here. For Christians to reunite would require no compromise on the part of Catholics, because the Catholic Church is and would remain the one true Church founded by Christ, protected from teaching error by the Holy Spirit. Therefore no valid doctrine or scripture interpretation would change were separated individual Christians or entire denominations or sects to become reconciled with us. My single area of disagreement is with the last sentence. To reunite with the Catholic Church would mean submission to the authority of the Pope and acceptance of the magesterial teaching authority of the Church. The role of the Pope would not change, although the status of bishops and patriarchs of separated groups who do enjoy apostolic succession would be recognized.
The ability of clergy to marry is discipline, not doctrine so would not affect the discussion.

If my brother Bill leaves the family in a towering rage, disagreeing with our parents and grandparents about everything they have ever taught us, adopts a life of sin and embraces everything our Jones family hates, his name is still Bill Jones–even if he legally changes his name to Tom Smith. He is still of our heritage, if we are Irish he is still Irish, he cannot change his DNA. If after a lifetime of prayer, we reconcile, Bill takes his old name back, asks our father for forgiveness, reconciles with the family, sits down with us at Thanksgiving dinner, we are one family again. Even if we welcome his wife and children who are not of our faith, that does not diminish the Jones family, it enriches and completes it.
 
not until catholics believe you don’t have to pay for your own sins through purgatory
 
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bloodwater:
not until catholics believe you don’t have to pay for your own sins through purgatory
Bloodwater,

It may assist you to read this quote from James Akin:

You see, Protestants are very firm (in fact, insistent) about the fact that we continue sinning until the end of this life because of our corrupt nature. However, they are equally firm (if you press them) about the fact that we will not be sinning in heaven because we will no longer have a corrupt nature. Thus between death and glory there must be a sanctification—a purification—of our natures. This purification may take no time, but as we have seen, this is no barrier to the doctrine of purgatory. The fact remains that between death and glory must come purification, and that is purgatory by definition—the final purification or, to put it in more Protestant terms, “the final sanctification” or “the last rush of sanctification.”
 
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mjf150:
Do you believe that the various Christians Faiths of the world should strive for unity?
It will one day happen…In heaven!

In heaven there will be no non-Catholics and therefore we will be one.

Peace
 
Christians should make every effort toward reunification - Jesus only founded 1 church; if He had wanted 30,000, He would have created them, right? Satan has mastered the most basic military strategy known: divide and conquer.

As stated several times above, this should not mean compromising our theology and traditions. Marcus Grodi’s Coming Home Network has helped over 700 Protestant ministers become Catholic. Many of them have written about their Scriptural reasons for doing so. There stories range from heart-warming to heart-rending, and you can check them out at chnetwork.org.

I would also like to recommend Peter Kreeft’s book Ecuminical Jihad. Kreeft maintains that we must not minimize our differences, but we must discuss them fairly to determine what they are and what they are not. Just clearing up the incredible misconceptions about Catholic teaching would be an enormous step forward. When we pray, “Thy kingdom come,” we should remember that an important part of our job as Christians is to help make His Kingdom present in this world. Ultimately, we cannot accomplish that without unity.
 
posted by bloodwater

not until catholics believe you don’t have to pay for your own sins through purgatory
Praise the Lord and welcome home to Rome! Catholics believe we must be purified and made Holy (ie purgatory). Christ did the paying we get the purifying. Nothing unclean shall enter the kingdom of heaven.

So when will you start your classes for conversion?

God Bless,
Maria
 
4 marks:
If unity means that all Christians should re-vert and become Roman Catholics, then a definite “NO!!!” If unity means that all Christians should unite around points of agreement and work together, and not against one another, then a definite “YES!!!”

There is unity in diversity…many members, one body. Not all human cultures are the same. Not all people are the same. Some people become astrophysicists…others do not.

The blue highlighted sentance is straight out of the Gay’s Handbook for acceptance. That sentance is pure academic nonsence.

Have you ever mixed a stick of red Playdough with sticks of Blue and green Playdough? Every time you get a sick looking gray blob, ugly too. If you want to crush the Catholic Church ( the one that Christ started) just mix it up with two or three Protestant groups.
 
Great, but I’m not compromising my beliefs for unity, if on the other-hand others want to join the Catholic faith, no problem, they’re all welcome.
 
All Catholics should pray continually that the lost Protestant sheep return to the fold. Christ’s salvation is available to all, and it is very sad that so many have chosen their own (Protestant) way over the Church of Christ.

We should keep the light on for them.
 
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