Should Churches charge for Sacraments?

[Augustinian]

And Confession?

With Confession, it would be easy enough, coin operated doors like they have on pay toilets.

The problem is nowadays no one carries coins and if they used cards the charge would appear on the credit card bill, violating the seal of confession.

 

[deMontfort]

My parish’s religious education instructor is a paid employee of the parish, not a volunteer. I suspect that’s norm in the US, and that’s the reason some religious education services come with fees.

 

[babochka]

My parish’s religious education instructor is a paid employee of the parish, not a volunteer. I suspect that’s norm in the US, and that’s the reason some religious education services come with fees.

That’s a fee for a service. Most parishes have a paid music director and many have paid musicians, but those who go to Mass are not assessed a fee to cover the cost of their salaries. Parishes usually have several paid employees and their salaries are considered part of the operating budget of the parish and not expected to be covered only by those who benefit from their position.

Religious education of children is usually directed at preparation for sacraments and required for the reception of those sacraments. Sacraments are essential to the life of a Christian. How can we, in good conscience, charge for this?

 

[deMontfort]

Most parishes have a paid music director and many have paid musicians, but those who go to Mass are not assessed a fee to cover the cost of their salaries.

Wedding fees, however, ARE assessed to cover their salaries.

 

[babochka]

babochka:

Most parishes have a paid music director and many have paid musicians, but those who go to Mass are not assessed a fee to cover the cost of their salaries.

Wedding fees, however, ARE assessed to cover their salaries.

Music at weddings using professional musicians is optional. Receiving the sacrament, usually in the church, is not. As far as I know, the fee for use of the church doesn’t usually cover musicians. I think even parish musicians are paid extra for weddings, so any associated fees would be above and beyond their parish paid salary.

 

[deMontfort]

It does in our parish.

 

[babochka]

It does in our parish.

And if you don’t desire that service? If you have your own musicians ? Is it required anyway?

 

[deMontfort]

It’s the standard fee for a wedding mass. Since I have no desire to spend several grand on my own musicians I really don’t give a crap about that scenario.

 

[phil19034]

Interesting perspective. Why do you think that this is so? After all, the same financial pressures – and more, if the numbers of active parishioners continue to drop! – will continue to be felt in parishes!

2 reasons:

1. Because more & more younger people are not getting married in the Church
2. because more & more younger people view it as paying for the Sacrament - they honestly view it the same way as paying for annulments.

Note: I don’t mean to imply that there will not be a “recommendation donation” … but that the parishes will lower the recommended donation amount for parishenors, explain what them money goes to much better, and perhaps ask for a Parish rental fee from non-parishenors

Parishes also need to get much better about letting people know about small wedding options to “complete” against the courthouse weddings. I.E. getting married in the chapel or rectory with a deacon or priest (similar to a convalidation), or having a wedding mass as part of a regular scheduled daily mass.

For example, there is NO valid reason why poorer Catholics cannot have a SMALL / BASIC wedding ceremony during a Saturday morning mass or even a Saturday evening mass.

God Bless

 

[TheLittleLady]

Religious education of children is usually directed at preparation for sacraments and required for the reception of those sacraments. Sacraments are essential to the life of a Christian. How can we, in good conscience, charge for this?

You just opened a huge can of worms for another thread
Suffice to say, Religious Education is a whole life process. Every DRE, every Pastor I’ve ever encountered works to change the attitude that RE is only for 1st Communion and Confirmation Prep.

As you said, you live in a tiny parish. There may not be enough children to have a separate class for every age. Based on averages, that means you likely have 30 or fewer children (ages 4 - 17) in your parish. It would not be difficult to buy a tiny number of RE textbooks, worksheets, pencils, cookies, make photocopies, etc.

When you have 3,000 children in that age group, things get expensive fast. 30 Confirmation Prep workbooks are easily around $500 with shipping, etc.

For very small, 15 family parishes, the Diocese would have funds to help support that parish. Grants are available, Catholic Home Missions helps these small parishes. That is a wonderful thing!

Medium to large parishes are facing a much more expensive task.

 

[babochka]

babochka:

Religious education of children is usually directed at preparation for sacraments and required for the reception of those sacraments. Sacraments are essential to the life of a Christian. How can we, in good conscience, charge for this?

You just opened a huge can of worms for another thread
Suffice to say, Religious Education is a whole life process. Every DRE, every Pastor I’ve ever encountered works to change the attitude that RE is only for 1st Communion and Confirmation Prep.

As you said, you live in a tiny parish. There may not be enough children to have a separate class for every age. Based on averages, that means you likely have 30 or fewer children (ages 4 - 17) in your parish. It would not be difficult to buy a tiny number of RE textbooks, worksheets, pencils, cookies, make photocopies, etc.

When you have 3,000 children in that age group, things get expensive fast. 30 Confirmation Prep workbooks are easily around $500 with shipping, etc.

For very small, 15 family parishes, the Diocese would have funds to help support that parish. Grants are available, Catholic Home Missions helps these small parishes. That is a wonderful thing!

Medium to large parishes are facing a much more expensive task.

Larger parishes would presumably have larger collection and proportionately more funds to draw upon for their needs. My point is that the catechesis of our children, and the costs incurred in that process, is an obligation of the parish as a whole, not just of the families who participate.

 

[TheLittleLady]

The sad reality is that a very few parishioners give the vast majority of the donations.

No one is ever turned away because they cannot pay for the book (as I mentioned before, we are moving to a platform where the books will be a very minor expense) or for the other expenses. Those are subsidized by the parishioners. Those who can afford to pay $25 to cover the cost of the supplies are asked to do so.

It is staggering on here where people wail about fees, but, did they ever simply ask for a scholarship?

 

[dochawk]

With Confession, it would be easy enough, coin operated doors like they have on pay toilets.

Perhaps @StephieNorthco will remember, but I don’t. This appears in a Ron Goulart short story or novel of the 60s or early 70s.

Goulart’s strain of dystopianism was particularly sarcastic–and, unfortunately, prophetic.

edit: as a few more synapses fire, it’s likely from The Wicked Cyborg, which is really a series of shot stories in sequence, not a novel.

hawk

 

[StephieNorthCo]

Beat me to it. Had to dust a few things off. I was originally going to say “After Things Fell Apart”, but I think you’re right… Wicked Cyborg.

 

[dochawk]

I first read Wicked Cyborg in junior high, and thought it was s stupid, mindless, poorly plotted waste.

Then I read it as an adult out of horrified memory, and was amazed and terrified at how insightful it was . . .

OK, 70s/80s dystopian SF is my favorite subgenera,with Pournelle at the top of the list (still not forgiving Stephie for selling her complete collection to someone else . . . )

hawk

 

[StephieNorthCo]

Pournelle had a rare insight into guessing future events. I think it stems from his insight into the human psyche.

 

[dochawk]

Definitely (although his timeline on he codominium and church unification was a bit off [looks out window for russian troops for good measure].

And as an advisor during the Reagan administration, he was part fo the clique that favored/advocaed the military buildup not for military reasons, but because the response would bankrupt the Soviet Union–one of the small handful who called that one . . .

his introductions to the short stories in the anthologies he edited were the highlights, not the stories themselves . . .

hawk

 

[HolySpirit1]

i could understand a fee for using a parish hall for a reception after the wedding, but to charge a fee, to just turn on the church lights for an hour so that priest can preside over a wedding is insane and wrong. An just gives people another reason not to get married in the Catholic Church to begin with. bad enough ya have to pay taxes as a married couple, now you have to get charged a " wedding fee " which some are going to say well it doesnt go to the priest it goes to keep the church open so you can have wedding, an then some im sure are arguing that it is cheaper in a church than else where, then im sure some are going to say something else, not to mention the tradition of slipping the priest some cash after the wedding as a gift.

dunno if the church charges a funeral fee, dont think there are charges for a baptism since it is usually done in a public mass same for confirmation.

well if there is a funeral fee for having a catholic burial ima skip that, and deff skipping getting married in a catholic church if the norm is to charge for the service. or i’d just i dunno send the bill to the bishop an ask him which is more important, charging me to practice my faith , or risk losing members due to taxing them for a service which is mandated by the church.

 

[Phemie]

bad enough ya have to pay taxes as a married couple, now you have to get charged a " wedding fee "

Pay taxes as a married couple?

 

[Gorgias]

2 reasons:

1. Because more & more younger people are not getting married in the Church

Hmm… so, kind of a “it’s not really a source of revenue anymore, so let’s not bother continuing to ask for donations”? Isn’t that a self-defeating proposition?

1. because more & more younger people view it as paying for the Sacrament - they honestly view it the same way as paying for annulments.

So, this one seems based on poor catechesis. Should we, then, let people persist in their misunderstanding, or should we properly catechize them so that they don’t think that they’re “paying for the sacrament” or “paying for an annulment”?

Note: I don’t mean to imply that there will not be a “recommendation donation” … but that the parishes will lower the recommended donation amount for parishenors, explain what them money goes to much better, and perhaps ask for a Parish rental fee from non-parishenors

To tell you the truth, that’s what happens already (at least, in the parishes with which I’ve been affiliated with in the past)!

For example, there is NO valid reason why poorer Catholics cannot have a SMALL / BASIC wedding ceremony during a Saturday morning mass or even a Saturday evening mass.

In my diocese, there is. We’re not allowed to have wedding Masses on Sundays and holydays of obligation.

But, to tell the truth, my experience is that there’s usually no distinction between the wealth of the family and the desire to have a big, blow-out wedding. In fact, it’s often the case that the families without wherewithal want to show that they’re not destitute, and therefore, put on big, showy weddings. Not all, mind you, but many…