Should Churches charge for Sacraments?

[TheLittleLady]

And there is a difference between the facilities cost and giving a stipend/stole fee/gift/donation to the pastor. Two different things.

 

[CilladeRoma]

More like the other way around!!!

My diocese has an annual appeal every year. Parishes are assessed an amount. If the parish does not raise those funds, it comes out of the operating budget.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Right. The stipends for Masses are usually quite small. Like 10 dollars, which in US compared to the cost of even a small wedding is nothing.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Shocking how few in the pews know about this.

Then we can add in the other offerings that are required to go to the Diocese, some during the Triduum, the Christmas offering (often the largest of the year).

Don’t forget the offerings for Peter’s Pence that go to the Vatican.

The parishes support the Universal Church.

 

[CilladeRoma]

Shocking how few in the pews know about this

Then, at least in my diocese, we have the “school tax”.
Every parish in my diocese is assessed an 18% tax that goes to Catholic schools.
That is 18% of the operating budget, every year. Regardless if you have a school attached to your parish or not, and regardless of how many of your students actually go to Catholic school.

I have found that most don’t know about this either.

 

[Mi_Rose]

Weddings cost the parish money. It may charge a fee to recoup those costs. That is not charging for matrimony.
The priest makes a wedding file. Those materials cost money as do so many other things.
Matrimony is not charged for. Not liking the way something is phrased does not change the facts. A wedding with the bride groom two witnesses and the priest with no fancy dress and no party no music and no honeymoon will not be charged for here IF the couple tells the priest they want to get married but have no money.

 

[1ke]

Two weeks after the wedding I received a message from the secretary informing me I needed to pay a ‘wedding fee’.

I see that I’ve arrived to this party late, and you may not be reading anymore. But I hope you do read what I am about to write.

First, you ask if the Church should “charge for sacraments”. That is simony and it is gravely immoral and forbidden.

That does not mean that offerings on the occasion of sacraments are forbidden (they aren’t) or regulated by canon law or the particular laws of your diocese (they are), or expected (likely expected). That does not mean that a stipend offering to a priest who celebrated a sacrament is forbidden (it isn’t) or regulated by canon law and norms of the diocese (they are), or that they aren’t expected (they probably are).

Let me give my own diocese as an example: Offerings on the occasions of sacraments are regulated as to the suggested amount in our Province (Province of Milwaukee which covers all of WI): $10 baptism, $75 marriage, $50 funerals. These offerings are to go to the Works of Charity account of the parish to be used for charitable purposes. These are suggested offerings and can NEVER be required or obligated. Anything given from $0 to the suggest amount goes to Works of Charity. Anything above that amount can be kept by the priest as a stipend offering. Mass offerings are $10 in our diocese. Priests are obligated to celebrate the mass whether there is a monetary offering or not, and whether it is less than $10 or not.

For confirmation our diocese recommends a stipend amount for the bishop and the MC. Our parish pays for that, not the comfirmands or their families. During the Confirmation mass an offering for a charity is taken up, and I recommend confirmands each have $10 to give to that collection.

 

[1ke]

Two weeks after the wedding I received a message from the secretary informing me I needed to pay a ‘wedding fee’.

Continued due to character limit:
Again: SUGGEST. the reason they set the “limit” on offerings is because people ask “how much”. It’s a suggested amount, and if people have the means, they should make the offering in thanksgiving for the sacrament, either the suggested amount or more. If they have the means, they should also offer something to the celebrant.

For all sacraments, I explain to the families the suggested offering if there is one, what it is used for, and if they want to give the priest an offering I suggest they make it clear by making a separate check or cash in a card or envelope. I suggest $10 for the priest. I’ve had families give nothing, and I’ve had families give the suggested amount, and families give more. I only tell them once, and then it’s up to them what they do.

As to weddings. We do not have any “wedding fee” in our parish. Also a rural parish. Also small. Also don’t have a lot of overhead involved in any weddings. Of course, there is a fee to rent the hall if they want to do that for a reception. It’s $50, plus insurance. In my old parish-- a very large, urban parish where I got married-- we did have some fees for the marriage prep, the use of the church and whatever, but that was all explained up front. The offering on the occasion of the sacrament was left up to me and whether I offered our deacon anything, again left up to me.

I would ask what this “wedding fee” is for. You don’t mention an amount. Basically, I would listen to what the fee is and what it is for, and then decide whether I would give the donation or not. It’s not a fee for the sacrament and can’t be a fee for the sacrament, and if they insist it was a fee for the sacrament I’d promptly report it to the diocesan judicial vicar. If I didn’t think it was reasonable, I would simply say “no, I’m not paying that” and be done. I would go ahead with whatever offering I’d planned to make to the parish or the priest/deacon.

The canons governing this are:
Can. 848 The minister is to seek nothing for the administration of the sacraments beyond the offerings defined by competent authority, always taking care that the needy are not deprived of the assistance of the sacraments because of poverty.

Can. 952 §1. It is for the provincial council or a meeting of the bishops of the province to define by decree for the entire province the offering to be given for the celebration and application of Mass, and a priest is not permitted to seek a larger sum. Nevertheless, he is permitted to accept for the application of a Mass a voluntary offering which is larger or even smaller than the one defined.

Can. 1264 Unless the law has provided otherwise, it is for a meeting of the bishops of a province:
2/ to set a limit on the offerings on the occasion of the administration of sacraments and sacramentals.

 

[TC3033]

In the end the costs for these programs have to come from somewhere and in many cases it has to be from those utilizing them. Other parishes may allocate more resources toward paying for these programs themselves

Oh…I don’t disagree whatsoever. I was going along with the question of the cost. The parish here made big changes to the religion courses last year, took a lot away (busing, snacks, meal, etc…) to do Family Faith Formation and put much of the onus on the parents…but the price stayed the same. From what I could find, they’re still the most expensive parish in the area.

This drove some families away from the get go, and I think they’ll lose more this year (us being one of them).

 

[1ke]

It’s interesting and I find myself wondering how many here are cradle Catholics and how many are converts and I wonder how that changes the attitude towards it.

I am a convert. I’ve lived in a large, urban Catholic parish and I currently live in a small, rural parish.

The large urban parish charged for CCD, had fees associated with prep for baptism, weddings, use of the buildings, and expectations regarding offerings for sacraments. I get all the arguments about facilities and staff and whatever, but frankly, I think most of those arguments are overstated. I will say that I was very involved at my old parish and I know that arrangements could be made for those who couldn’t afford the fees for the wedding facilities.

My current parish we do not charge parents for religious education, we don’t charge for use of the church for weddings, I go by the diocesan norms for suggested donations, and the only thing we charge for is use of the hall, and that’s nominal at $50 that goes to works of charity, plus required diocesan insurance.

So, if you think something is “off” at your parish, I suggest make an appointment to talk to your pastor about the situation. Also to let him know that this was sprung on you after the wedding and no mention of "fees’ were made beforehand. that is not good operating procedures and doesn’t allow people to make choices or to discuss their circumstances with their pastor beforehand

 

[YourNameHere]

This is a forum. You are entitled to your opinion.

 

[Clementine14]

When I was married, at our initial meeting with the priest we were given a list of fees. There was a fee for the use of the church, a fee for the music director, a fee for the altar servers, a fee for the pre-cana stuff, and a fee for the “wedding coordinators”. The only one I thought was ridiculous was the wedding coordinator fee. Our wedding was fairly small (around 50 people) and we did not need two people to run the rehearsal and open the doors. However, we paid it anyway and never really thought much else about it. We also gave the priest a couple hundred dollars on top of this.

It’s important to note that the priest told us if we were unable to pay, they could certainly work something out. It does seem odd that none of this was brought up to you in your wedding preparation, but if you can afford it, you really should just pay it and move on. If someone in the office handled your paperwork, if you participated in any kind of wedding preparation, if you used any electricity, if anyone at the wedding used the restroom, if someone had to be there early and open up the church, etc…then there was extra work and use of facilities that is appropriate to be charged for.

I’m sorry, but the cleaning the church stuff doesn’t make sense to me. After your wedding, you cleaned the church while in your wedding dress? Like, washing the floors and cleaning the bathrooms?

 

[1ke]

I’m sorry, but the cleaning the church stuff doesn’t make sense to me. After your wedding, you cleaned the church while in your wedding dress? Like, washing the floors and cleaning the bathrooms?

Many people here can’t relate to small, rural parishes. Yes, the families set up and clean up, because we literally have NO employees or paid staff or paid services. Parishioners mow the lawn. Parishioners clean the church and hall. Parishioners do everything as volunteers. So, if you are using the church or the hall, you show up early and set up, you stay late and clean up. That’s how it is. “You” meaning actually “you” or “you” as in “your family members and friends”.

For weddings, yes, people change out of their attire and clean up, or family stays behind and cleans up, or comes back later and cleans up-- runs the vacuum, picks up mess, straightens pews, removes decorations, tidies up the hall, mops/sweeps floors.

Yes, that’s how it is in small parishes.

In large parishes, they have paid staff people that do this or cleaning services. And “wedding coordinators” to make sure people keep it moving and don’t make a mess. Yes, that is why larger parishes charge.

 

[TC3033]

Yes, the families set up and clean up, because we literally have NO employees or paid staff or paid services. Parishioners mow the lawn. Parishioners clean the church and hall. Parishioners do everything as volunteers. So, if you are using the church or the hall, you show up early and set up, you stay late and clean up. That’s how it is. “You” meaning actually “you” or “you” as in “your family members and friends”.

That, or there is a volunteer ministry that does the clean up after weddings, funerals, etc… I know that’s how one small parish here works.

 

[Arkansan]

Charging for sacraments is gravely illicit. Charging for incidental costs is not.

To make this distinction clear, parishes should (but usually don’t) explain that people getting married have the option to have it done during a regular daily Mass with nothing but the basics, or to pay the fee.

 

[CilladeRoma]

The fee is not for the Sacrament it is for all the other little incidentals that go into have a large event at the Church.

I will never understand why people think nothing of dropping tens of thousands of dollars for a wedding & honeymoon then complain about a fee to the Church.

 

[CilladeRoma]

Again they are not charging for the wedding itself. It is all the incidentals: musicians, the coordinator, the people who clean up and set up, the utilities, etc.

My diocese sets the fee schedule. For some parishes, that are more popular for various reasons (long aisle, pretty interiors, convenience to reception locations) the fees can be higher, and in some cases it is a two year waiting list. In resort areas, or popular wedding destinations, the fees can be upwards of $1000 dollars.

Again, why is this an issue? The average American wedding costs about $30,000. Is $500 to the church too much to ask?

 

[1ke]

The fee is not for the Sacrament it is for all the other little incidentals that go into have a large event at the Church.

Perhaps you missed where it wasn’t a large affair but a small affair put together on a shoestring with the OP providing the music, cantor, altar servers, and everything else via his friends/family volunteering. They tried to have a wedding in a regular mass with just the priest and two witnesses and were refused.

I will never understand why people think nothing of dropping tens of thousands of dollars for a wedding & honeymoon then complain about a fee to the Church.

I don’t think you read the OP carefully. They had a shoestring budget, went camping for their honeymoon, tried to have a very basic ceremony within an existing mass. It doesn’t sound like what you are envisioning and chastising him for.

I don’t think many people are actually hearing what the OP is saying on this thread: He did not want private use of the facilities, he ended up having to have private use, but that private use did not consume air conditioning, minimal electricity, and no personnel beyond the priest himself.

 

[CilladeRoma]

@1ke, I was replying to @(name removed by moderator).

 

[1ke]

Again they are not charging for the wedding itself. It is all the incidentals: musicians, the coordinator, the people who clean up and set up, the utilities, etc.

The OP provided all of that himself except the priest and the electricity (electricity for one hour or less is de minimus, the church did not have AC).

Again, why is this an issue?

I would have an issue with the parish secretary calling me up AFTER my wedding telling me I owe a random fee.

I would have an issue with anyone telling me I owed a fee for a sacrament.

I would have a problem paying a “fee” if I had asked for a wedding within an already scheduled mass and was refused.

I would have a problem with not having things explained beforehand so that I had a choice as to paying the supposed-fee, asking for a waiver, or going elsewhere.

The average American wedding costs about $30,000. Is $500 to the church too much to ask?

Um, yeah, it is if it’s a small country parish with no AC in the church and the OP provided the musicians, the servers, and everything else and was in and out of there in an hour or so.

It does not cost $500 for what the OP describes. Of course, the OP hasn’t indicated he was asked for $500. We don’t know what the fee is that he was asked for.

I don’t even think it’s the fee per se, as he had already set aside money to give to the church and priest. It is the way in which the fee was demanded, AFTER his wedding and without any prior indication of such a “fee” and without explanation of what the fee is for.

He should ask what it’s for.