Should Churches charge for Sacraments?

[TheLittleLady]

Again, Mass stipend is an average of $10. So, the hour he spends at rehearsal, the hour he says Mass and the hours he spent in your prep, and writing the homily - yeah, a $10 should cover that.

Priests are paid salaries. Staff is paid salaries. The “overhead operating costs” have to be considered at the parish level if a parish is going to continue to function.

 

[1ke]

At least 6 hours of “preparation sessions”

Which the parish pastor or deacon are actually already paid a salary. This is their job.

the cost of the FOCUS inventory.

Only if your parish uses FOCCUS. The current cost of the FOCCUS inventory is $15 per couple (per the FOCCUS website).

Staff time to complete paperwork, assist with gathering sacramental records, etc. Let’s say all totled over the 6 month prep time, 3 manhours

Again: this is their job. They are already paid a salary to do these things. Or in my case, as I do all of this as a volunteer, there is nothing to pay.

Time on the phone with details like when can the flowers arrive and can the photographer come and look at the building before the date and can the musicians come in and rehearse, locking and unlocking the building for these, lets say another 3 hours.

No let’s not say this, because first in the OP’s situation none of these things actually took place and I don’t know of anywhere that musicians, photographers, and florists do this. In my (very large urban) parish, the parish gave us a diagram of the church with “X marks the spot” for where flowers could be set up, where a photographer and videographer could stand, and where musicians would sit.

Minimum of an hour, always after hours so you have to pay someone “overtime” to unlock/lock up.

The priest, who is salaried, has keys.

Is the party getting dressed onsite? This means someone has to come in and open the building at least 2 hours to sometimes 6 hours ahead of the wedding time so all the girls can get makeup and dressed, photos can be taken of the dressing preparations. Flowers and other decore have to be put up. Let’s average all of this at 4 hours.

In many places this is either a volunteer or the priest who unlocks. The person who unlocks need not stay.

 

[1ke]

Pastor has to compose a homily, that is going to take him at least an hour.

Which, once again, is his JOB.

Someone has to clean the place where the wedding party got dressed (you would not believe the messes we have seen left behind), clean the Church, the bathrooms.

Someone already cleans the place. They are already paid a salary, are volunteers, and/or a janitorial service is already paid to clean the church. Most parishes have a list of things that the wedding party has to do before they leave.

This is at least 2 hours.

In my parish this is more like 10 minutes.

All of this time people are using electricity, toilet paper, soap, and water, we have to have insurance to cover them while they are on property. Photocopies, postage, long distance phone calls from the office to coordinate documents. Wine and cleaning the altar linens and hosts.

All of which are already used in the normal course of business. The business of providing sacraments to the people.

 

[somecanadian]

I suspect you and I just won’t 100% see eye to eye on this issue but it’s good to hear other sides of a thing.

I work hard. I don’t get paid. I am happy to serve. Just saying. Haha.

 

[TheLittleLady]

But someone pays your electric bill, right? My power company does not take happiness in return for voltage.

 

[1ke]

Again, Mass stipend is an average of $10. So, the hour he spends at rehearsal, the hour he says Mass and the hours he spent in your prep, and writing the homily - yeah, a $10 should cover that

His SALARY covers that.

 

[woolycaterpillar]

Our church did not charge for weddings or funerals in the past but now they do. The people pay for the wedding, but not the sacrament. The wedding is an event. The sacrament is an outward sign of inward grace.

Confession is not a sacrament you pay for either. Lucky they don’t because if they did, nobody would go.

However, spiritual directors can charge a fee.

Strange that funerals come up in this. You know you can do your own funeral and save lots of money by not having a funeral home. I don’t know if I would want to drive around with a corpse in the car which is what that would require. Then the dead body is taken by the family to either the crematorium or the cemetery. The funeral industry is a major expense for a regular funeral, but it depends on where you live if you want to do it yourself.
.
The last rites are not something that would cost anything. That would be hard to have to worry about paying for the sacraments of the sick.

 

[phil19034]

It is not an inconvenience. However, people don’t just sit around the parish all day, eating bon bons and waiting for someone to come in.

We work hard, we get paid, our time is worthy of a paycheck. The parish does not operate on oxygen and prayers.

I don’t think people believe your don’t work hard. But your argument is flawed. You need to focus on the hard dollar costs, not the soft dollar.

People don’t like to be charged for soft dollar services. Doens’t matter if it’s in business or sales. People don’t want to be forced to pay for the “value add” and are typically not willing to pay for soft dollar services.

To make a strong argument, you need to focus on how much extra money a parish has to pay in bills when they have a wedding on a Friday night (or Sat afternoon) vs no wedding.

God bless.

 

[TheLittleLady]

My point is, people write posts as if there is zero overhead or operating costs for a parish.

There are, salaries, utilities, insurance, all of this is the “cost of doing business”. We do not sell widgets on the side, we rely on the parishioners to cover the overhead. Fees for exclusive use of the facilities is one way that the overhead cost is covered.

This is basic budgeting 101.

 

[phil19034]

My point is, people write posts as if there is zero overhead or operating costs for a parish.

There are, salaries, utilities, insurance, all of this is the “cost of doing business”. We do not sell widgets on the side, we rely on the parishioners to cover the overhead. Fees for exclusive use of the facilities is one way that the overhead cost is covered.

This is basic budgeting 101.

Correct. But you are ignoring marketing 101.

You need to focus on the hard costs to the parish. No one is going to convinced to pay a fee based on soft costs, regardless of whether it’s justified or not. You need to focus on the additional hard costs, because people can relate to that.

 

[TheLittleLady]

The priest, who is salaried, has keys.

In many places this is either a volunteer or the priest who unlocks. The person who unlocks need not stay.

Perhaps in other parts of the nation, in very small parishes, etc.

Here, the priest is spread so thin he does not have time to come in and unlock lock up for flowers and bridal party dressing and photographers, etc. If you know people who will volunteer to spend their Friday night at a rehearsal AND half of Saturday, I’d love to know where you find them!

We are not a safe, Mr Rogers neighborhood. The person has to stay to lock up after making sure the building is empty and secure.

 

[Mi_Rose]

Since when does a parish pay deacons who are not administrators. Deacons around here do a lot of weddings and are not paid by the parish.

 

[somecanadian]

I think this may be where the disconnect is happening. You are speaking from the view of large parishes where, apparently, the parishioners are not involved and I think some of us are speaking from the view of very small parishes where the parishioners are very involved.

 

[Augustinian]

It’s primarily done for certain inner city parishes, where the parish would not be able to function without outside support.

A lot of your inner city parishes have older, larger, more ornate church buildings- which are a lot more expensive to clean and maintain than the modern church buildings a lot of people on CAF really dislike.

Steeplejacks don’t work cheap.

It cost a neo-gothic Baptist church a million clams to take down, repair and restore its historic steeple. They could not have done it without a grant from local historical preservationists.

 

[phil19034]

1ke:

The priest, who is salaried, has keys.

In many places this is either a volunteer or the priest who unlocks. The person who unlocks need not stay.

Perhaps in other parts of the nation, in very small parishes, etc.

Here, the priest is spread so thin he does not have time to come in and unlock lock up for flowers and bridal party dressing and photographers, etc. If you know people who will volunteer to spend their Friday night at a rehearsal AND half of Saturday, I’d love to know where you find them!

We are not a safe, Mr Rogers neighborhood. The person has to stay to lock up after making sure the building is empty and secure.

And this is a legit cost. When you must pay someone OT, that’s fine to ask someone to pay for it.

But you cannot argue it as “we need someone to unlock and lock the church.” That’s not going to fly. You need to say something like:

We have to pay OT to have our maintenance person on location during the actual wedding and set-up time to handle basic maintenance items and in case there is an emergency. Unfortunately, we don’t have enough volunteers for this, so the parish has to pay overtime for this coverage.

You have to explain it much better.

 

[EvangelistVictor]

Acts 8:18-24 New International Version (NIV)
18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19 and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

20 Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”

24 Then Simon answered, “Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me.”

 

[phil19034]

Acts 8:18-24 New International Version (NIV)
18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19 and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

20 Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”

24 Then Simon answered, “Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me.”

Hi Victor, I’m not sure what you point is. Did you mean to direct this to me?

 

[1ke]

we rely on the parishioners to cover the overhead

Yes, this is where the offertory comes in every week, as well as bequests.

Fees for exclusive use of the facilities is one way that the overhead cost is covered.

The OP was DENIED the option of having his wedding during a regularly scheduled mass.

Also, even people who do have weddings “exclusively” using the church-- those masses are open to the public. Anyone can attend a mass for a wedding, a funeral. They are a public liturgy.

A reasonable amount can be asked for, certainly, depending upon the size and scope of the wedding or funeral. However, a fee can never be REQUIRED because all Catholic have an actual canon law right to receive the sacraments, including marriage, regardless of ability to pay any sort of fee or stipend or make an offering.

 

[EvangelistVictor]

Hi Victor, I’m not sure what you point is. Did you mean to direct this to me?

Ohh, no sorry. Did I accidentally reply to you??

Just a verse that came to mind.

 

[1ke]

Since when does a parish pay deacons who are not administrators. Deacons around here do a lot of weddings and are not paid by the parish.

Um, I don’t know what to tell you. Deacons are paid in our diocese. They were paid in my prior diocese. I don’t know any deacons who are not paid. Some more, some less depending on what their responsibilities are in the parish.