Should Drugs Be Legalized?

[BobObob]

Dope (because I have a hard time spelling marjaunana) is a “gateway” drug. A lot of people who start out on dope end up moving up to something a little more damaging.

Alcohol is much more of a gateway drug than marijuana. There is a correlation between marijuana use and use of more dangerous substances, but this is due to non-causal factors (such as the fact that those who will use use dangerous drugs are also willing to try marijuana).

I saw somethign recently about a medication made from dope, but the hallunicgenic in it was removed, and it assisted people with serious muscle spasams and pain.

You’re thinking of marinol. It has already been covered on this thread that marinol neither does all that marijuana does medically nor does it as effectively (see posts 17 and 25).

Keep that rubbish illegal.

Should the fact that something is rubbish mean that the government should be able to arrest, prosecute, and imprison someone for merely possessing or using it? I think not.

Booze is another matter all together. You can’t “causually” or “responsibilty” use fags or dope/drugs. Its only a few idiots who misuse booze that ruin the situation for the rest of us.

More than 1 out of 20 American is an alcoholic (wrongdiagnosis.com/a/alcoholism/stats-country.htm ). That’s a VERY serious problem. Alcoholism ruins so many lives. It was party why my grandfather was such a horrible man and abused his children. Despite this, I think that alcohol (as well as marijuana, which is safer) should be legal because making it illegal would cause more problems than it solves. Just look at how alcohol prohibition worked. Prohibition made Al Capone rich.

 

[Desertsailor]

BobObob;6788095]Actually, I think that these numbers back up my position that making these substances creates more crime. If someone is strongly addicted to something that he can only attain through a black market, he’s going to be willing to do a lot of things to attain the high amounts of drug money needed. Black markets are filled with violence otherwise as well.

You typically don’t see any marijuana related crimes in the Netherlands, where it’s legal.

That is wrong thinking. If you legalize theft then you won’t see theft crimes.

If you want to put almost a hundred million, more than 1 out of 5 Americans, in jail for life without parole plus kill thousands of others, you are insane. There’s a reason why the US more inmates than all other countries (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison#Population_statistics).

After the crime becomes “not worth it.” People will stop using it. Lock 'em up for life and after a few years no one will want it.

Do you have any non-governmental sponsored studies or any medical doctor (who isn’t paid by the government) who has studied marijuana to back up the idea that marijuana is a toxic drug? It’s a hallucinogen that temporary alters one’s consciousness, but has no known negative long-term effects despite studies on the issue.

Why do you want me to use sources who are biased to your point of view instead of using the experts who actually know what they are talking about?

What’s your source (if any)?

Try the DEA. I know you are too paranoid to trust them, but maybe you should.

If you don’t treat this professor at a prestigious institution to be a credible source, than what source are you relying on when you claim “ Marijuana is dangerous not only because it is a gateway drug but because it does permanent brain damage with each use”.

I’ve known a lot of professors at prestigious institutions who were dopers themselves. They can’t be trusted.

First, you do know that a higher % of US citizens use marijuana than citizens of the Netherlands, where marijuana is legal, don’t you?

I’m sure more people in the Netherlands have gone on to hard drugs and left the marijuana behind while they are killing themselves and others with their dope.

Second, substance use and abortion are very different things. For some things, being “off-limits” may give it a sense of appeal to many people (I like to dub this the “forbidden fruit” effect). This couldn’t really apply for abortion, or other forms of murder.

I’m sure you’ll find this hard to believe, but some people obey the law because it’s the law.

I would caution against trusting government sources on this matter since certain government agencies have a need for certain substances to be illegal. If certain substances were legalized, many people in government would lose their precious jobs.

Your paranoia is showing.

The ideal source is one that has no interest in the matter that would create bias.

OK find one. I’ve already talked to and been present at many lectures by credible people. There are no disinterested 3rd parties. Anyone who has seen the autopsyies of the junkies becomes interested very quickly.

By the way drug dealers are murderers. They don’t care who their dope kills as long as they get their cut.

 

[Desertsailor]

Alcohol is much more of a gateway drug than marijuana. There is a correlation between marijuana use and use of more dangerous substances, but this is due to non-causal factors (such as the fact that those who will use use dangerous drugs are also willing to try marijuana).

You’re thinking of marinol. It has already been covered on this thread that marinol neither does all that marijuana does medically nor does it as effectively (see posts 17 and 25).

Should the fact that something is rubbish mean that the government should be able to arrest, prosecute, and imprison someone for merely possessing or using it? I think not.

More than 1 out of 20 American is an alcoholic (wrongdiagnosis.com/a/alcoholism/stats-country.htm ). That’s a VERY serious problem. Alcoholism ruins so many lives. It was party why my grandfather was such a horrible man and abused his children. Despite this, I think that alcohol (as well as marijuana, which is safer) should be legal because making it illegal would cause more problems than it solves. Just look at how alcohol prohibition worked. Prohibition made Al Capone rich.

If you want to talk about alcohol why don’t you start another thread.

 

[stringbeanduck]

You need to spend more time reading the bible and catechism before you accuse me of going against the Church.

I never said you were going against the Church. I was speaking of your statement. That is contrary to Catholic teaching. And yes, I’m up to date on my catechesis and biblical knowledge.

Deuteronomy 19:17-21, and Exodus 21:23-21:27,

2266-The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people’s rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people’s safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.

 

[Desertsailor]

I never said you were going against the Church. I was speaking of your statement. That is contrary to Catholic teaching. And yes, I’m up to date on my catechesis and biblical knowledge.

Deuteronomy 19:17-21, and Exodus 21:23-21:27,

Drug dealers are murderers and deserve capital punishment. They don’t care who their drugs kill as long as they get paid. I’m right in line with the Catholic Church’s position.

 

[colmywaykurtz]

That’s exactly what I’m saying. And I’m not insane.

You may not be, but what you suggest sounds like it. You start trying to incarcerate that many people, you’ll turn the rest into enthusiastic gun owners real quick, ready to shoot the cops that break down their doors. Instant Armed Revolution, brought to you by Desert Sailor!

 

[Desertsailor]

You may not be, but what you suggest sounds like it. You start trying to incarcerate that many people, you’ll turn the rest into enthusiastic gun owners real quick, ready to shoot the cops that break down their doors. Instant Armed Revolution, brought to you by Desert Sailor!

There won’t be that many people incarcerated. Think about it. If you were offered a joint and you realized you could do life in prison for it would you take it.

 

[stringbeanduck]

Drug dealers are murderers and deserve capital punishment. They don’t care who their drugs kill as long as they get paid. I’m right in line with the Catholic Church’s position.

Whoa there cowboy! Now let’s not start with the fallacies here. Your statement said and I quote:

If the punishment for a crime is not more terrible than the crime itself then the law has no teeth and won’t work.

Now you’re saying that the punishment (execution) fits crime. Fallacy of contradiction.

 

[Desertsailor]

Whoa there cowboy! Now let’s not start with the fallacies here. Your statement said and I quote:

Now you’re saying that the punishment (execution) fits crime. Fallacy of contradiction.

So you are admitting that drug dealing is worthy of capital punishment. Finally we agree.

 

[stringbeanduck]

I wanted to respond to these statements since technically, they are both incorrect.

You typically don’t see any marijuana related crimes in the Netherlands, where it’s legal.

Marijuana is not legal in the Netherlands, it is illegal and people do in fact get prosecuted, when they act brainless about. However, the Netherlands has a policy, there by which each drug is catagorized by risks. Drugs like marijuana and alcohol are considered low risk drugs, therefore they do not enforce the law when people are lighting up in their homes or in coffee shops. Drugs like cocaine, meth, and herion, for example, are considered high risk drugs. Therefore, tollerance for them is low if not non existant. This accomplished two things. Responsble marijuana and alcohol users are allowed to engage in these activities whilst those who are boligerent or uncooporative in soceity get thrown in jail.

I’m sure more people in the Netherlands have gone on to hard drugs and left the marijuana behind while they are killing themselves and others with their dope.

Actually that is false. The Netherlands has a lower overall drug use and marijuana use than the US.

-Netherlands Ministry of Health, Welfare and Sport, Drug Policy in the Netherlands: Progress Report September 1997-September 1999, (The Hague: Ministry of Health, Welfare and Sport, November 1999), pp. 7-8.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

Drug awareness resistance education has been used for at least 20 years and has had no effect. So I think this is a waste of time.

I really don’t want to be one of those people who harp on and on about people reading their original post, but I don’t have a choice since this is the second time I’ve had to quote back to it.

especially if we tax it and use the revenue for effective drug resistance education, education in general, and rehabilitation centers.

Note I said effective resistance education.

 

[Desertsailor]

Read this:
pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/drugs/special/math.html

hard core users and casual users - spend approximately $60 billion dollars a year, according to U.S. government estimates.

Almost all this money is stolen from someone; parents, grandparents, other family members, neighbors, strangers, stores, banks etc.

Do you drug promoters think stealing is wrong? Remember druggies don’t work but they pay hundreds of dollars a week for their habit. Where do they get the money?

 

[stringbeanduck]

So you are admitting that drug dealing is worthy of capital punishment. Finally we agree.

Um, I did not say that. I believe in what the catechism says:

2267- Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

 

[Desertsailor]

I really don’t want to be one of those people who harp on and on about people reading their original post, but I don’t have a choice since this is the second time I’ve had to quote back to it.

Note I said effective resistance education.

So you are going to depend on money from taxing drug use. This sounds a little counter productive doesn’t it. You have to count on people using drugs to keep people from using it. duh.

 

[Desertsailor]

Quote:
2267- Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Therefore I’m right.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

Therefore I’m right.

This is where the discussion turns to captial punishment. Murdering drug dealers is not the “the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.”

Drug dealers effectively stop dealing drugs when their source is removed. Ergo, lock them in prison and remove their source of products to sell. The crime has been stopped and people are protected. Murdering them is not the answer any more than murdering any other criminal.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

So you are going to depend on money from taxing drug use. This sounds a little counter productive doesn’t it. You have to count on people using drugs to keep people from using it. duh.

Let’s try to keep this discourse civil, okay? “duh” doesn’t help that. If it continues I will leave the conversation.

Actually it makes perfect sense. More drug users = more money available for addiction treatment, and effective resistance education. As the numbers decrease, there is less money and also less addicts that need treatment.

Lets also not forget that there will always be responsible users of drugs like marijuana that are supporting the system, just as there are responsible users in the Netherlands. The goal should be to change the culture around us rather than spend tons of money to force people to do things by ruining lives.

Let us also not forget the billions we are spending on the “war on drugs” that is not doing anything to help cut back on use that could be used for education. The better educated our children are, the less they are going to use drugs.

 

[Desertsailor]

This is where the discussion turns to captial punishment. Murdering drug dealers is not the “the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.”

Drug dealers effectively stop dealing drugs when their source is removed. Ergo, lock them in prison and remove their source of products to sell. The crime has been stopped and people are protected. Murdering them is not the answer any more than murdering any other criminal.

I didn’t mention murdering drug dealers. I said use capital punishment on convict drug dealers.
By the way the only way to remove their source is by using capital punishment on the suppliers. After awhile they will say it isn’t worth the risk.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

I didn’t mention murdering drug dealers. I said use capital punishment on convict drug dealers.
By the way the only way to remove their source is by using capital punishment on the suppliers. After awhile they will say it isn’t worth the risk.

The ends don’t justify the means.

The rule doesn’t apply to culture as a whole, but each individual case. THere IS a way to stop drug dealers without depriving them of the life God gave them. To kill them when there is another way to stop the crime is murder.

It’s like a man beating on a woman. You can either go over there and pull him off her, or you can shoot him in the face. If you can stop him using non-lethal force you are required to do so. if you make no effort to stop him, and just shoot him, you have murdered him in the eyes of the church.

 

[stringbeanduck]

Therefore I’m right.

I didn’t mention murdering drug dealers. I said use capital punishment on convict drug dealers.
By the way the only way to remove their source is by using capital punishment on the suppliers. After awhile they will say it isn’t worth the risk.

Ehm No. Whitacre_girl is right. I’m sure we can legislate a law that locks up major drug dealers for life, thus preventing them from harming society. This fits the Catechism better than killing them.