Should ex-Mormons keep their temple oaths?

[vickimonica]

Actually, if a mormon wishes to convert to Catholicism, they must be re-baptised,. along with j. witnesses, and jews. Protestants converting to Catholicism do not have to be re-baptised.

 

[SSTeacher]

Protestants converting to Catholicism do not have to be re-baptised.

Are you certain? How does the Catholic Church formally accommodate Friends and Oneness Pentecostals or any other former member of a “Jesus only” faith community apropos Baptism?

Peace,
Mick

 

[TheosisM]

Are you certain? How does the Catholic Church formally accommodate Friends and Oneness Pentecostals or any other former member of a “Jesus only” faith community apropos Baptism?

Peace,
Mick

The Catholic Church does not re-baptize those that were baptized in the name of the Trinity, and hold to the Trinitarian theology of God. Therefore, Mormons, Oneness Pentecostals, and a few others are “re”-baptized. If there is any doubt about the baptism, they will be conditionally baptized.

 

[SSTeacher]

The Catholic Church does not re-baptize those that were baptized in the name of the Trinity, and hold to the Trinitarian theology of God. Therefore, Mormons, Oneness Pentecostals, and a few others are “re”-baptized. If there is any doubt about the baptism, they will be conditionally baptized.

Thanks for confirming this. So, apropos Baptism, it appears that the Catholic Church divides “Protestant” Christians who decide that they want to become Catholics into two categories. Some will have to be baptized and some won’t. Latter–day Saints will need to be baptized. They can therefore correctly be described by post–conciliar Catholics as “Christians who need to be baptized so as to be received into the Catholic Church.” Right?

Cordially,
Mick

 

[Catholic20064]

Thanks for confirming this. So, apropos Baptism, it appears that the Catholic Church divides “Protestant” Christians who decide that they want to become Catholics into two categories. Some will have to be baptized and some won’t. Latter–day Saints will need to be baptized. They can therefore correctly be described by post–conciliar Catholics as “Christians who need to be baptized so as to be received into the Catholic Church.” Right?

Cordially,
Mick

This article is worth reading. I hope it helps:

irr.org/mit/neuhaus.html

 

[twopekinguys]

Like what, for instance? You must have had something in mind when you wrote that. Be more specific, please.

Generally, when a Mormon leaves the church because he no longer believes in LDS doctrine and no longer believes that [fill in the blank] is a prophet, the members do spread rumors that he is guilty of some egregious moral failing. That is SOP in the Mormon church, and I’ve seen it done many times. They did exactly that to me and my wife when we resigned. They accused us far and wide of several horrible sins, none of which we were guilty of. But no matter, it was faith promoting for them to spread those cruel lies about us, and so they did it with gusto and were all smug and satisfied with themselves.

My cousin recently sent a letter to SLC to resign her membership. Her mother is inactive.

We’ve had lunch a couple of times since she did this, and she has told me how she has been given the cold shoulder treatment. Nothing about rumors or accusations (yet). I was with her one time at WalMart, right after she resigned, and encountered a couple of ladies from her ward/stake, and it was obvious that they saw us, turned around and went the other way. We chalked it up to them being uneasy about the situation, and not knowing what to say, that sort of thing. So basically, we gave them the benefit of the doubt.

We have gone to lunch since, and she has told me that it happened a couple of more times, and being the spunky individual that she is, (wonder where she got that ) she wanted to test it. She said she purposely went up to one of the ladies to start a conversation, and got nothing but one word answers. She said she could tell they were looking for any way possible to get out of the situation.

We’ll just have to see how the rest of it plays out.

 

[conilcil]

A Christian’s word should be their bond…

 

[SSTeacher]

A Christian’s word should be their bond…

Welcome!

Cordially,
Mick

 

[Anna_Scott]

A Christian’s word should be their bond…

Bienvenue, mon ami.

My French is really too rusty to read your links; but appreciate your contribution.

Hope you enjoy the Forums.

Santé!
Anna

 

[Publisher]

Are you certain? How does the Catholic Church formally accommodate Friends and Oneness Pentecostals or any other former member of a “Jesus only” faith community apropos Baptism?

Peace,
Mick

Friends do not practice water baptism at all…well…some Evangelical Friends accommodate those who want to be baptized in water…but it is not Friend’s belief…California Yearly Meeting of Friend’s Church will set up with another denomination who practices water baptism to conduct the ceremony if the Friend’s pastor is uncomfortable performing the ordinance. If a Friend converts to another tradition that requires water baptism…they would need to be baptized unless they were baptized as a child in a different faith tradition before joining Friends.

 

[dianaiad]

Like what, for instance? You must have had something in mind when you wrote that. Be more specific, please.

there is always more than one side to a situation. As a rule, only two things will get someone excommunicated (initiated by the church)…egregious moral failings, or being very public about their disagreements; that is, being publically and vocally oppositional to the church while claiming full membership. This last has gotten quite a few people ‘ex…d’ as they should be. If someone no longer believes in a specific belief system, and is actively opposing it, he or she should leave. If he does not, then the church should say ‘bye.’ I was wondering just how…adamately vocal…the opposition to the church teachings were in this case.

Generally, when a Mormon leaves the church because he no longer believes in LDS doctrine and no longer believes that [fill in the blank] is a prophet, the members do spread rumors that he is guilty of some egregious moral failing. That is SOP in the Mormon church, and I’ve seen it done many times. They did exactly that to me and my wife when we resigned. They accused us far and wide of several horrible sins, none of which we were guilty of. But no matter, it was faith promoting for them to spread those cruel lies about us, and so they did it with gusto and were all smug and satisfied with themselves.

Hey, people are people…and Catholics can and do stuff just as underhanded. I’m not going to say that your Mormon neighbors were right to do this; far from it. I HAVE, however, also been around the block a few times, and quite frankly, Paul…

it’s too easy just to quietly leave the church and go elsewhere. I know many people who have done precisely that, and many more who claim to have been given the shaft–but who are kidding themselves and others about the reality of things.

Do I believe that you were guilty of all sorts of horrific moral transgressions? No. Do I think that you were the purely innocent bystander who bears no responsibility for the way things happened? Nope.

Diana

 

[PaulDupre]

there is always more than one side to a situation. As a rule, only two things will get someone excommunicated (initiated by the church)…egregious moral failings, or being very public about their disagreements; that is, being publically and vocally oppositional to the church while claiming full membership. This last has gotten quite a few people ‘ex…d’ as they should be. If someone no longer believes in a specific belief system, and is actively opposing it, he or she should leave. If he does not, then the church should say ‘bye.’ I was wondering just how…adamately vocal…the opposition to the church teachings were in this case.

You are talking 2009, I am talking 1986. Back then, it was SOP to hold a church court on any member who apostacized. All I did was write a letter and hand-carry it to my bishop. I gave him the letter, he opened it, read it and we talked a bit. I asked to be released from all my callings immediately and the bishop said I was released as of that moment. I never came to the ward again, nor did I say anything to anyone else about my lack of belief. A few days later, the bishop’s 1st counselor and another member came to my home with a letter informing me that I had been charged with apostacy, and gave a date for my church court. I told them that I no longer recognized their authority and would not attend the court. They tried to encourage me to attend, but I was firm.

A few weeks later, I got another letter from the stake informing me that they had held a court in my absence and I had been excommunicated for apostacy.

A few weeks later still, I got a letter from SLC to the same effect, that I had been excommunicated for apostacy.

 

[PaulDupre]

It seems that now so many people are leaving the LDS church that they can no longer go through any kind of lengthy procedure for all of the people who in the past would have been tried for apostacy. Now they just process them and take them off the records.

Also, in 1986, just around the time I was being tried in absentia, a court case against the LDS church decided that they could not give people a hard time about leaving and that membership ends when the person declares that they are no longer a member.

So now the process is greatly streamlined. I wish it was so when I was leaving.

 

[vickimonica]

Are you certain? How does the Catholic Church formally accommodate Friends and Oneness Pentecostals or any other former member of a “Jesus only” faith community apropos Baptism?

Peace,
Mick

You got me there Mick. I’m not sure about that. I help out in RCIA, and I have heard them say that mormons, j. witnesses, and Jews would need to be re-baptized when converting to Catholicism. Can anyone help us out here?

 

[TheosisM]

You got me there Mick. I’m not sure about that. I help out in RCIA, and I have heard them say that mormons, j. witnesses, and Jews would need to be re-baptized when converting to Catholicism. Can anyone help us out here?

check above, we answered Jews wouldn’t be “re”-baptized, since they don’t baptize in the first place

 

[RebeccaJ]

It seems that now so many people are leaving the LDS church that they can no longer go through any kind of lengthy procedure for all of the people who in the past would have been tried for apostacy. Now they just process them and take them off the records.

Also, in 1986, just around the time I was being tried in absentia, a court case against the LDS church decided that they could not give people a hard time about leaving and that membership ends when the person declares that they are no longer a member.

So now the process is greatly streamlined. I wish it was so when I was leaving.

Ironically, to a mormon view, this only increases the “specialness” of those who stay.

 

[twopekinguys]

It seems that now so many people are leaving the LDS church that they can no longer go through any kind of lengthy procedure for all of the people who in the past would have been tried for apostacy. Now they just process them and take them off the records.

Also, in 1986, just around the time I was being tried in absentia, a court case against the LDS church decided that they could not give people a hard time about leaving and that membership ends when the person declares that they are no longer a member.

So now the process is greatly streamlined. I wish it was so when I was leaving.

I think these may be the cases you’re thinking of.

THE NORMAN HANCOCK LAWSUIT (Mesa AZ 1985)
In 1985 the Mormon church ‘excommunicated’ Norman Hancock AFTER he submitted a letter of resignation to the church. Hancock filed an $18 million lawsuit against the church, saying a person has a right to voluntarily resign from a church. The suit was settled out of court and the settlement was sealed. An account on line reports that Hancock filed the suit himself, without the aid of a lawyer, after studying the Guinn case. The same account says that church lawyers started discussing with Hancock just how much money he wanted, but he told them he didn’t want their money, that what he wanted was to have his name cleared. Church representatives agreed to change the records such that there would no longer be any record of an ‘excommuication’: the records would show that he resigned (that he asked for ‘name removal’).

Also

There is one case in particular that has clearly established in case law a right that most of us believe we had all along: the right to simply resign from a church. A second case is important to establish the church’s vulnerability to lawsuits when they refuse to honor resignations.

GUINN V THE CHURCH OF CHRIST OF COLLINSVILLE
Final decision by the Supreme Court of Oklahoma, January 1989
Marian Guinn, a member of the Church of Christ of Collinsville, OK, hand delivered her resignation to the minister after he told her he was going to excommunicate her for fornication. The minister refused to honor the resignation, went ahead with the ‘excommunication’ and then announced it from the pulpit. Guinn sued and was awarded $390,000. On appeal the Oklahoma Supreme Court ruled that Guinn’s resignation was effective immediately and that anything the church or the minister received Guinn’s resignation was tortable. In other words, she could sue for anything they did after she resigned. The court ruled that with her resignation Guinn withdrew her consent to being treated as a member and she withdrew her consent to being subject to church discipline.

Of extra importance is the fact that the court ruled that the right to freedom of religion also includes the right to unilaterally resign from a church.

In several subsequent court cases the Mormon church has agreed to the principles established in Guinn. They have not even attempted to argue that the principles do not apply to them.

dailykos.com/story/2008/1…597/670/629888

 

[Jerusha]

So I generalize from that: When Mormons generate malicious gossip about a person who was never Mormon, despite having had plenty of contact with Mormons and Mormon culture, their standing in court would be the same as those who resigned.

Diana, I really don’t see much difference between myself and an ex-Mormon. The irony of them keeping their temple oaths in relationship to me and others like me is beyond.

 

[Kdesiel]

My cousin recently sent a letter to SLC to resign her membership. Her mother is inactive.

We’ve had lunch a couple of times since she did this, and she has told me how she has been given the cold shoulder treatment. Nothing about rumors or accusations (yet). I was with her one time at WalMart, right after she resigned, and encountered a couple of ladies from her ward/stake, and it was obvious that they saw us, turned around and went the other way. We chalked it up to them being uneasy about the situation, and not knowing what to say, that sort of thing. So basically, we gave them the benefit of the doubt.

We have gone to lunch since, and she has told me that it happened a couple of more times, and being the spunky individual that she is, (wonder where she got that ) she wanted to test it. She said she purposely went up to one of the ladies to start a conversation, and got nothing but one word answers. She said she could tell they were looking for any way possible to get out of the situation.

We’ll just have to see how the rest of it plays out.

Tell your sis to hang in there, and she’s not alone. When I converted from the LDS Faith there were a lot of awkward moments at stores and around the town. Eventually I realized who my true friends were as cliche as that sounds. The true friends I had made in the Mormon Church still talk and hang out with me today, they accept I left the Church and my reasons. We still have discussions, we don’t always see eye to eye but we’re still friends.
Plus as I think I’ve said before, what I lost in terms of community in the LDS faith when I left I gained ten fold when I came ino the arms of the Catholic church. It took me a little while to get over a certain amount of shyness, I felt a bit intimidated because I wasn’t raised Catholic, I felt as though I didn’t know a whole lot, but I got over and and found my Parish to be warm and freindly and really just a great place to be.
My prayers are with your sis. Its a tough road, but it sounds like she’s got a good Brother to help her, and good friends to lean on when she finds herself in need of strength.

God Bless T.P.
In Christ,
K

 

[PaulDupre]

I think these may be the cases you’re thinking of.

THE NORMAN HANCOCK LAWSUIT (Mesa AZ 1985)
In 1985 the Mormon church ‘excommunicated’ Norman Hancock AFTER he submitted a letter of resignation to the church.

That’s what they did to me a year after that case. I guess the results of the case had not trickled down to the wards and stakes by then or translated into policy until much later.