Should females not wear pants?

[ThereCanBeOnly1]

I believe Jesus also wore similar long flowing garments and not pants. What gives there? Was He confused and going against tradition or law? Never -we know that to be true.

So what would then be construed as the male or female garb in Jesus’ time - since that is the time you would like to reference?

I do not believe this thread has addressed head coverings - a whole other topic for a new thread.

As for midriffs showing - I do no think that is being discussed here either.

And we all recognize that lay people are different than the religious. Why would you compare the dress code of nuns to secular women?

You must ask yourself these questions since you have still not answered mine. Are you saying that Jesus + the Christ+ clothing was not appropriate for our time now? Are you saying that the way Mary the Mother of GOD+ dressed would not be appropriate today? Many woman dress like this today, in India, Africa, the Middle East, Indonesia, South America, Malaysia, etc.,? Remember your mindset is on western cultural clothing? Believe or not most of the world populations women are not in Europe and North America. Are you saying that nuns and secular woman should dress differently?, why? Since Jesus+ is God+ and God+ is perfect, you must deduce that Jesus+ is perfect. Logic follows than he should have mentioned that some women should dress one way and others another way, as your say, I do not think that is the intention of the references I cited. I think it was meant for all women. I would think that Mary and Jesus+ are exceptional examples to follow even today. If Jesus+ and Mary were in front of you what would you want them to wear? Please explain it to me since I do not know, I was merely referencing the Holy Bible.

Respectfully and GOD+ Bless.

 

[jrabs]

You must ask yourself these questions since you have still not answered mine. Are you saying that Jesus + the Christ+ clothing was not appropriate for our time now? Are you saying that the way Mary the Mother of GOD+ dressed would not be appropriate today? Many woman dress like this today, in India, Africa, the Middle East, Indonesia, South America, Malaysia, etc.,? Remember your mindset is on western cultural clothing? Believe or not most of the world populations women are not in Europe and North America. Are you saying that nuns and secular woman should dress differently?, why? Since Jesus+ is God+ and God+ is perfect, you must deduce that Jesus+ is perfect. Logic follows than he should have mentioned that some women should dress one way and others another way, as your say, I do not think that is the intention of the references I cited. I think it was meant for all women. I would think that Mary and Jesus+ are exceptional examples to follow even today. If Jesus+ and Mary were in front of you what would you want them to wear? Please explain it to me since I do not know, I was merely referencing the Holy Bible.

Respectfully and GOD+ Bless.

Jesus and His Mother dressed and lived in the culture of their times. While Jesus’ message and His words are for all ages, that is not to say that his dress is.

They both wore flowing clothing. How does that not answer your question? He did not wear slacks, so by your logic, men should not be either. Or did only men get to change their style of dress and don slacks?

I’m really getting lost on your logic. If you are saying that they way Jesus and Mary dressed should be appropriate for all ages, then why are men also not wearing flowing robes to emulate Jesus?

And many populations do wear layered robe-like clothing because the layers are cooler in their hot climates.

AS for nuns dressing differently than the secular world, I love to see nuns in full habit. Fabulous - though they always belong to a religious order and the order usually has dress codes one must follow ( or at least it used to be that way till recent trends). It’s part of obedience for the vows and their order.

Secular women do not need to dress as nuns - though we should keep modesty in check. Why would we need to dress like nuns? That makes no sense.

As far as Jesus appearing in front of us - often He appears as the least of us. As the beggar shabbily dressed on the street corner. He appears as the elderly man in the nursing home with just a hospital smock on. That is the reality of how Jesus is going to appear in front of us and certainly more likely than a heavenly apparition.

 

[ThereCanBeOnly1]

Jesus and His Mother dressed and lived in the culture of their times. While Jesus’ message and His words are for all ages, that is not to say that his dress is.

They both wore flowing clothing. How does that not answer your question? He did not wear slacks, so by your logic, men should not be either. Or did only men get to change their style of dress and don slacks?

I’m really getting lost on your logic. If you are saying that they way Jesus and Mary dressed should be appropriate for all ages, then why are men also not wearing flowing robes to emulate Jesus?

And many populations do wear layered robe-like clothing because the layers are cooler in their hot climates.

AS for nuns dressing differently than the secular world, I love to see nuns in full habit. Fabulous - though they always belong to a religious order and the order usually has dress codes one must follow ( or at least it used to be that way till recent trends). It’s part of obedience for the vows and their order.

Secular women do not need to dress as nuns - though we should keep modesty in check. Why would we need to dress like nuns? That makes no sense.

As far as Jesus appearing in front of us - often He appears as the least of us. As the beggar shabbily dressed on the street corner. He appears as the elderly man in the nursing home with just a hospital smock on. That is the reality of how Jesus is going to appear in front of us and certainly more likely than a heavenly apparition.

==========================================

1. Are you saying that HIS+ word was good enough for all Ages, but HIS+ Clothing was not? Why? I have explained before and below about most of the world population dress. Read on.
2. Read comment before about clothing worldwide. It has nothing to do with that, climate is the added benefit. You are mistaken. Millions do wear dress like Jesus+ and Mary+ and emulate them. Trust me I know I am from one those countries where long dress is appropriate for all. Have you seen African, Asian, Middle Eastern, Indonesian, Malaysian dress for men and women?
3. I asked you why women should not dress like nuns. You can tell me, why it is not for secular women. In other countries, cultures, religions, women do dress like nuns and it is because it is appropriate. You must think outside the westernized mindset box. Remember Most of the world’s population does not dress as women of western countries. Western countries make up less than 7% of the worlds’ Population.
4. I gather you say secular women should not be as obedient
5. so Jesus+ as you say, would be naked and lying in garbage and excrement, vomiting on himself, because in the countries I have been to, India, Africa, and South America, this, for the beggars, is their luxury.
6. Again you forget that slacks/jeans did not exist. So you must hold true to what the Most Holy Scripture says of Dress as a whole and not just slacks/jeans. Please review the gospel reference I left previously and explain to me what it means.
7. I do not know how he would appear, nobody can know that. All I know is what we have extant today, which would be in Scripture, although poor, HE+ was not the beggar on the Street Corner. He did not beg for anything, he only asked that you live like him, yes that would also mean emulate (try as best as you can).

I am not sure, but this may account for the reason why the fastest growing religion is Islam (1.5 Billion and increasing every second)

How about this, if you could to visit Jesus+, would you wear a regular pair of jeans? Or for a job interview at an office that pays $1000000+ a year, would you wear jeans, running shoes, and a t-shirt? Your Logic says yes. Why?
As I am learning also you can give me all reasons to the contrary.

Respectfully and GOD+ Bless.

 

[jrabs]

==========================================

1. Are you saying that HIS+ word was good enough for all Ages, but HIS+ Clothing was not? Why?
   I believe Jesus said his word was for ages. He did not say his clothing was. Please cite for me where Jesus said we must continue to wear flowing robes - both men and women? Because if it was good enough for both at the time - then why are we even discussing how slacks are inappropriate for women.
2. Read comment before about clothing worldwide. It has nothing to do with that, climate is the added benefit. You are mistaken. Millions do wear dress like Jesus+ and Mary+ and emulate them. Trust me I know I am from one those countries where long dress is appropriate for all.
   ahhhhh. I see now. You would like for all to dress as you do. **YOU **are offended by the European and Western dress.

Are you implying that your culture is better because you all dress in robes? See all cultures are not the same. Each culture has it’s very apparent downside to folks of a different culture. You believe the Western culture’s downside is the lax dress code. Your opinion - but not based on scripture.

Are we sure that when folks around the world dress in long flowing gowns, they are emulating Jesus? Or are they merely wearing the style of the culture? Do people in the parts of the world you cite get up daily and consciously think they are wearing the dress attire of Jesus and Mary? They are simply getting dressed. There are no other choices.

1. I asked you why women should not dress like nuns. You can tell me, why it is not for secular women. In other countries, cultures, religions, women do dress like nuns and it is because it is appropriate. You must think outside the westernized mindset box. Remember Most of the world’s population does not dress as women of western countries. Western countries make up less than 7% of the worlds’ Population.

And you are saying that women SHOULD dress as nuns? Why must I think out of the Western box? If women in other cultures wear headdresses ( habits), then I would assume it is their culture. Where is that better then the western culture? Do you have a high population of Catholics?

1. I gather you say secular women should not be as obedient

**Please reread and quote me properly. I did not say that - though secular women do not have to be obedient to vows and a religious order as the religious do. **

1. so Jesus+ as you say, would be naked and lying in garbage and excrement, vomiting on himself, because in the countries I have been to, India, Africa, and South America, this, for the beggars, is their luxury.

And you claim that Jesus will only appear only to us all neat and tidy? He is God. He can appear to us as anyone - dressed in anything, asking for our compassion and our care.

Isn’t that why we are to care for the poor and sick and love those we meet who are in need? Didn’t Mother Teresa see Jesus in the lowliest of people?

1. Again you forget that slacks/jeans did not exist. So you must hold true to what the Most Holy Scripture says of Dress as a whole and not just slacks/jeans. Please review the gospel reference I left previously and explain to me what it means.
   I’ll pass. I see no passage about slacks - as this is the topic of the thread.

How about this, if you could to visit Jesus+, would you wear a regular pair of jeans? Or for a job interview at an office that pays $1000000+ a year, would you wear jeans, running shoes, and a t-shirt? Your Logic says yes. Why?

**Whose logic says yes? In what post did I say I would go to lunch with Jesus in jeans or an interview? Perhaps you are confusing me with another poster? ****One is to dress appropriately. In your culture, the long robe may be what is worn. Here, slacks are a choice. One must decide when to wear slacks. **
Slacks are a fabulous thing when I am on my roof cleaning gutters or operating my riding lawn mower.

 

[SeekerJen]

1. Read comment before about clothing worldwide. It has nothing to do with that, climate is the added benefit. You are mistaken. Millions do wear dress like Jesus+ and Mary+ and emulate them. Trust me I know I am from one those countries where long dress is appropriate for all. Have you seen African, Asian, Middle Eastern, Indonesian, Malaysian dress for men and women?

Yes, and those regions of the world have some of the most atrocious abuses against women. Female genital mutilation, honor killings, women being blamed for men raping them, education denied to women, bride kidnapping, sex-selective abortions so that couples can have boys rather than “useless” girls. NOT the kind of culture I want to live in. I’ll keep my blue jeans and my freedom, thanks.

 

[Teelynn]

Actually, the pant suits I wear to mass are feminin enough that I don’t think my husband would be caught dead in them!

 

[Teelynn]

But what is very objectionable to me (and to Our Lord and Our Blessed Mother more importantly) are the women that wear mini skirts and halter tops that are the ultimate in immodesty!

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

In our discussion about pants, it seems we must focus on the cultural side of the question. It is not a question of modesty (we all agree on modesty). What we need to sort out is, “Are pants a masculine garment in culture?”
This brings up several issues.

1. A definition
   Culture and fashion, how do we define these? I use culture to mean the true form of a society. So a desire to ‘let freedom ring’ characterizes American culture, independent of whether or not the members of the society live up to it. I believe fashion is created by the culture as language is. Just as it is possible to misuse language, it is possible to misuse fashion. A change must be examined to determine if it is a development or an abuse.
2. A distinction
   Just because it is acceptable in our society for women to wear pants does not mean that pants cease to be a masculine garment. It could be that our society has no problem with women wearing masculine clothing. The argument, therefore, has to be more developed than “Everybody does it.”

As a side note - Kilts are not skirts. They do look like skirts, but we have a different word because we understand it is a different thing. In the same way, night-gowns, albs, and trench coats are not dresses even though they may look similar or are put together in a similar way.

Very good analysis. You get to the heart of the question.

 

[MariaGorettiGrl]

A change must be examined to determine if it is a development or an abuse.

But who decides this. As seen in this thread, a group of Catholics, all trying their hardest to follow God (At least I hope :tsktsk: ) cannot even agree on whether pants should or should not be worn by women. Can you imagine trying to form a council of people to decide if a change is a developement or an abuse? Wouldn’t want to be there for that shouting match!

As for American culture, I guess that would take us back to the loin cloth, wouldn’t it? Don’t be shy!

 

[MariaGorettiGrl]

Yes, and those regions of the world have some of the most atrocious abuses against women. Female genital mutilation, honor killings, women being blamed for men raping them, education denied to women, bride kidnapping, sex-selective abortions so that couples can have boys rather than “useless” girls. NOT the kind of culture I want to live in. I’ll keep my blue jeans and my freedom, thanks.

So true! When I think of Africa, I don’t think “I’d really like to live like that!”

Hooray for the choice to wear skirts or blue jeans! Or even khakis sometimes! :dancing:

 

[tcraig]

I am not sure, but this may account for the reason why the fastest growing religion is Islam (1.5 Billion and increasing every second)

I live in Germany and see Muslims every day. While they are covered from their head to their toes, the vast majority of Muslim women wear pants. Younger Muslim women wear blue jeans.

 

[ThereCanBeOnly1]

Yes, and those regions of the

Um, so there is no crime in Western Countries. So I can see you are implying there is no rape, pedophiles, priest abuses (highest in the US), education for all (university), the west does not produce the most intelligent (education or not, unbiased , I am born in the West with European background but have lived all over the world, check world statistics for education demographics), Gang warfare, gang killings, drive by killings, drug trafficking (highest in the world), arms dealers (most guns in the world are made in the U.S.), kidnapping, …, in the West. Please check crime rate categories for different regions of the world. Read up on current events. Have you been to East Los Angeles (Compton), Chicago, Boston, New York City, Atlanta, Louisiana? Have you been to many of the inner cities slums in the U.S.? I HAVE, believe me there is crime and a lot of it. I think the west must clean up their own backyard before they judge other countries. I was born in the West and travel regularly around the world. You must remember though, yes these things may happen, but it is by their free will given to man by GOD+ that they do these things, and nothing to do with their dress. Judge Not Before ye be Judged. I think you have diverted attention to crimes in countries and that their dress as a causal factor of crimes committed. This topic is going on tangent so please read the reference from the Holy Bible and cross reference with the Catechism of the Council of Trent. That is where I cited. Oh by the way, you are losing your freedom and rights by new legislation introduced on a regular basis (please review you country/state law legislative board for changes and augmentations- freely available to all). Respectfully and GOD+ Bless.

 

[ThereCanBeOnly1]

I live in Germany and see Muslims every day. While they are covered from their head to their toes, the vast majority of Muslim women wear pants. Younger Muslim women wear blue jeans.

I have also lived Germany. I have colleagues who are Muslim in Germany and their female children do not wear jeans. This is a similar topic but concerning a different religion. It is similar in that you have traditional Muslims who follow what was originally taught. As traditional Catholics, we should also follow what was originally taught in the Bible as it is the Word of GOD+. If you look for the words slacks or jeans in the Bible you will not find it. May I ask where the majority of Muslim women wear pants are? Definitely not in Islamic countries such as; Saudi Arabia, Pakistan (population exceeding 120 million), Indonesia (population exceeding 125 million), and most of the Middle East, and even in India’s Muslim population (exceeding 100 million). As you can see that world statistics and demographics do not support your claims. You must be referring to the tiny fragment population of Muslim women in Western States. Let’s stay on topic, I do not think just because young Muslim women wear jeans justifies your argument. Otherwise you should also support their long dress which covers most of the body because MOST young Muslim women in the world (of 1.5 Billion Muslims) wear that also, and these women believe this to be the proper dress. These young Muslim women, on the contrary, do not agree with your claim. Respectfully and GOD+ Bless.

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

As traditional Catholics, we should also follow what was originally taught in the Bible as it is the Word of GOD+. If you look for the words slacks or jeans in the Bible you will not find it.

In that case, all Catholic men should trade in their trousers for long, flowing robes. Or are only women supposed to follow what is supposedly being taught in the Bible (which most of us read in translation, and is subject to numerous interpretations)?

Then again, I don’t know what your definition of “traditional Catholic” is, but it is quite possible that many of us don’t fit that definition.

 

[SeekerJen]

SeekerJen;1980746:

Yes, and those regions of the

Um, so there is no crime in Western Countries. So I can see you are implying there is no rape, pedophiles, priest abuses (highest in the US), education for all (university), the west does not produce the most intelligent (education or not, unbiased , I am born in the West with European background but have lived all over the world, check world statistics for education demographics), Gang warfare, gang killings, drive by killings, drug trafficking (highest in the world), arms dealers (most guns in the world are made in the U.S.), kidnapping, …, in the West. Please check crime rate categories for different regions of the world. Read up on current events. Have you been to East Los Angeles (Compton), Chicago, Boston, New York City, Atlanta, Louisiana? Have you been to many of the inner cities slums in the U.S.? I HAVE, believe me there is crime and a lot of it. I think the west must clean up their own backyard before they judge other countries. I was born in the West and travel regularly around the world. You must remember though, yes these things may happen, but it is by their free will given to man by GOD+ that they do these things, and nothing to do with their dress. Judge Not Before ye be Judged. I think you have diverted attention to crimes in countries and that their dress as a causal factor of crimes committed. This topic is going on tangent so please read the reference from the Holy Bible and cross reference with the Catechism of the Council of Trent. That is where I cited. Oh by the way, you are losing your freedom and rights by new legislation introduced on a regular basis (please review you country/state law legislative board for changes and augmentations- freely available to all). Respectfully and GOD+ Bless.

Never said there wasn’t crime in the western world. And yes, I spent seven years either going to school or working in the Detroit ghetto (widely regarded as much worse than any of the cities you have referenced), so yes, I have experienced the inner city. My point was that here in the US we do not require women to cover from head to toe, and we do not have systematic or government-sanctioned crime against women. I’m not a statistician, so I am not going to attempt to determine a correlation. All I know is what I see with my eyes. Countries that require women to dress in a certain manner often have much less respect in general for women and women’s rights.

 

[ThereCanBeOnly1]

jrabs:
Greetings, I can see that you are well versed in scripture. I am still in the learning process. I will take this opportunity to learn from you and ask about these references so I may understand.

1. Deut. 22:5 – “A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.” (Holy Bible). How should we understand this?

Rom. 12:1-2 - …by the mercy of GOD+. that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing unto GOD+… (New Testament). Do jeans fall in this category?

Rom. 13:14 But put on ye on the Lord+ Jesus+ Christ+ and maketh not provision for the flesh in its concupiscences (New Testament). Are jeans acceptable here?

1 Cor. 11:14-15 – “Does not nature itself teach you that for a man indeed if he nourish his hair, it is a shame unto him? but if a woman nourish her hair, it is glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering.” Does this mean covering only the head, but the body is up to the reader?

1 Cor. 6:19-20 – “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Ghost, who is in you, whom you have from God+; and you are not your own?; For you were bought with a great price. Glorify and bear GOD+ in your body.” (New Testament). Are women, when wearing jeans, abiding this?

(2) Actually I am Caucasian born in the West and have lived elsewhere. I have strong European background.
May I asked what countries in Africa or Asia (where most of the world population) you have lived in? Speaking From personal experience, you are gravely mistaken, they do have choices as do you and I, and they are NOT simply getting dressed. Sarcasm is not justified here. Remember we are talking about culture, and again, I am not implying about which culture is better than another (as I stated my background). And ahhhhhh, you don’t see because of my background, I am definitely not offended by western dress (bad assumption on your part).

To answer your question, YES people in many parts of the world, get up every morning trying to live like JESUS+ and Mary (including dress). And have concluded that you do not from your statements. Is that not what Jesus+ said, to live like him?

I put this question to you; where is the greatest number of Catholics worldwide? Check this website:

wholesomewords.org/missions/greatc.html#worldpop

Most of the world’s population of Catholics are not in the West. I am SHOCKED that you did not know this. Please confirm for your benefit. Oh, and the fastest growing Catholic populations are in Africa and Asia (combined population 4 Billion). Fastest declining Catholic Populations are in Western countries (US among highest). Ahhhhhhhh, makes you wonder why.

(3) & (4) Your quote:
“Please reread and quote me properly. I did not say that - though secular women do not have to be obedient to vows and a religious order as the religious do.”
It seems here that your saying nuns are religious if I am reading your quote correctly. So can I deduce that nuns are religious in part because of their dress (again that is the implication you have given from your quote).

(5) Yes I agree with you HE+ is GOD+ and he can appear in any way he chooses. But the topic here is dress and jeans/slacks in particular. You have not answered my question though, if you are to be before Jesus+, GOD+, are you going to wear your jeans, running shoes and t-shirt?

(6) Please review the Gospels I have cited and cross reference with the Catechism of the Council of Trent to see the meanings. So please just because you do see the words jeans/slacks, do not brush off that it is simply righteous.

(7) Try not to confuse culture with religion, in this case, Traditional Catholicism. My culture is also from the West, but I am considering an unbiased view based on the most Holy Scripture (as I have cited above and previously).

I would greatly appreciate your answers and with references in The Holy Scripture and Catechism. I may then review them for a better understanding. Remember to check the demographics on world Catholicism to clarify where the most catholics are, because only 66 million of the worlds 1.1 Billion Catholics are in the US ( that is only about 6.7%).

Respectfully and GOD+ Bless.

 

[ThereCanBeOnly1]

In that case, all Catholic men should trade in their trousers for long, flowing robes. Or are only women supposed to follow what is supposedly being taught in the Bible (which most of us read in translation, and is subject to numerous interpretations)?

Then again, I don’t know what your definition of “traditional Catholic” is, but it is quite possible that many of us don’t fit that definition.

The topic of Which Bible to Read is a whole different topic. But Are you implying, from your above statement, that GOD+ , Jesus+ and The Holy Ghost+ wanted everyone to have different interpretations or the same interpretation?

FYI, Traditional Catholic usually refers to those who follow mass of the Holy Apostles St. Peter and St. Paul, who were directed by Christ+. Most Catholics are modernized and follow the Novus Ordo Mass formed at the Second Vatican Council, instituted around 1969. It drastically changed the mass in so many ways that the two Masses (original Mass and Novus Ordo - new order- Mass) are very different. Why is that? An important change was from the Language of the Church, Latin, into vernacular of the country of the mass… Hence you are correct, that many if not most, do not fit the definition of Traditional Catholic.

Respectfully and GOD+ Bless

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Skirts with pants under 'em?

 

[ThereCanBeOnly1]

ThereCanBeOnly1;1981849:

Never said there wasn’t crime in the western world. And yes, I spent seven years either going to school or working in the Detroit ghetto (widely regarded as much worse than any of the cities you have referenced), so yes, I have experienced the The the inner city. My point was that here in the US we do not require women to cover from head to toe, and we do not have systematic or government-sanctioned crime against women. I’m not a statistician, so I am not going to attempt to determine a correlation. All I know is what I see with my eyes. Countries that require women to dress in a certain manner often have much less respect in general for women and women’s rights.

The topic is not about what you wear in the US, but if it is proper for females to wear pants/jeans. Please check thread for my previous comments and cited references. One need not have to be a statistician to realize that only 6.7% of the worlds Catholics are in the US. And that most of the Worlds 1.1 Billion Catholics are not subject to the US method of dress. The fastest growing Catholic populations are in Africa and Asia (combined population of these continents 4 Billion), of which the proper dress is not pants/jeans for women, but longer garment, some very similar to what Mary the mother of GOD+ adorned.

Respectfully and GOD+ Bless.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

FYI, Traditional Catholic usually refers to those who follow mass of the Holy Apostles St. Peter and St. Paul, who were directed by Christ+. Most Catholics are modernized and follow the Novus Ordo Mass formed at the Second Vatican Council, instituted around 1969. It drastically changed the mass in so many ways that the two Masses (original Mass and Novus Ordo - new order- Mass) are very different. Why is that? An important change was from the Language of the Church, Latin, into vernacular of the country of the mass… Hence you are correct, that many if not most, do not fit the definition of Traditional Catholic.

So, you are saying that “Tradional Cahtolics” go to the synagogue on Saturday for the readings and the seven blessings and then meet in someone’s house on the first day of the week to “break bread.” Is that what you are saying? That is, after all, how the Christians worshipped until they were kicked out of the temple and synagogues. They continued to meet in private homes until the 4th century when the Edict of Milan granted them equal status with other religions. Since Greek was the lingua franca of the known world, most Christians worshipped in Greek. The earliest known “Liturgy” is that of St. James which formed the basis for all Eastern Liturgies (except possibly the orignal Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malankara liturgies which are lost).

So, what is it that “Traditional Catholics” use?

Oh, yeah, what, exactly, is your doctorate in? We can presume it is neither history nor theology (and, for the record, mine’s in theology with an emphasis on the Eastern Churches).

Deacon Ed