Should gay marriage be legalised?

[Cracker_Mom]

It never ceases to amaze me that Christians often behave the least Christ-like. Just as Gandhi said when asked that he found much to love about Jesus it was his followers that disturbed him.
As someone who spent many years in a benedictine institution and have seen Holy Mother Church from inside, I can assure all the persons who replied to this thread with almost 100% certainty that you have received the blessed sacrament from a gay man. Your children have been baptised, your parents buried, and your dearkest secrets and shame been related to the same persons that you wish to negate with your comments.

My comfort after reading all that you have said is that you are decidedly losing. 25 years ago I when I was a young gay man I was beaten for simply existing. In another 25 years, gayness will be no more important than being left or right handed. If one looks at the polls, those under 30 support civil rights for gays by an astounding margin. The hearts of the young are always ahead of the curve.

That being said, the church will always have the right to “marry” whomever it wishes. This fight is for SECULAR rights. Hosptial visitation, property inheritance, all the things that straight couples take for granted. When all is said and done I always keep my eye on Christ and if he should by some miracle knock on my door and my partner and I are there to greet him I truly believe that my lord would see our love for what it is and bless us.
Can you imagine a God that would see two people who have stood by each other faithfully for a lifetime in sickness and health and mutual prayer being damned?
If that is so then we will carry our hearts and hand in hand fall into darkness together. I would not want to be anywhere near that God.

P.S. Maybe while we are there we will run into the odious little man who currently wears the Papal tiara.

P.P.S Please, oh Please stop using that lame Adam and Steve joke. It is so old it creaks and everyone has heard it a thousand times. It unfortunately does not get more clever as it ages.

I agree completely that there are good odds we all have received sacraments from a priest struggling with homosexuality.Ditto for priests struggling with substance abuse issues, lack of faith issues,bi-polar & depression issues,sins against celibacy issues, etc, etc. Priest suffer from the fallen condition just like the rest of us.Both physically & spiritually.
But Church teaching is that homosexuality is a disorder.And it is only in the acting out of homosexual relations that it becomes a sin.Gay marriage legitimizes a disordered relationship.

 

[Serap]

It never ceases to amaze me that Christians often behave the least Christ-like. Just as Gandhi said when asked that he found much to love about Jesus it was his followers that disturbed him.
As someone who spent many years in a benedictine institution and have seen Holy Mother Church from inside, I can assure all the persons who replied to this thread with almost 100% certainty that you have received the blessed sacrament from a gay man. Your children have been baptised, your parents buried, and your dearkest secrets and shame been related to the same persons that you wish to negate with your comments.

My comfort after reading all that you have said is that you are decidedly losing. 25 years ago I when I was a young gay man I was beaten for simply existing. In another 25 years, gayness will be no more important than being left or right handed. If one looks at the polls, those under 30 support civil rights for gays by an astounding margin. The hearts of the young are always ahead of the curve.

That being said, the church will always have the right to “marry” whomever it wishes. This fight is for SECULAR rights. Hosptial visitation, property inheritance, all the things that straight couples take for granted. When all is said and done I always keep my eye on Christ and if he should by some miracle knock on my door and my partner and I are there to greet him I truly believe that my lord would see our love for what it is and bless us.
Can you imagine a God that would see two people who have stood by each other faithfully for a lifetime in sickness and health and mutual prayer being damned?
If that is so then we will carry our hearts and hand in hand fall into darkness together. I would not want to be anywhere near that God.

P.S. Maybe while we are there we will run into the odious little man who currently wears the Papal tiara.

P.P.S Please, oh Please stop using that lame Adam and Steve joke. It is so old it creaks and everyone has heard it a thousand times. It unfortunately does not get more clever as it ages.

I have noticed that the people that voted yes are very silent in this thread. That being said, I voted Yes.

I do not believe that the Catholic Church should ever marry a gay couple as it is a holy sacrament, but if two people love eachother and want to legalize their bond, so they have access rights to eachother, then from a secular perspective, it makes sense (inheritance, hospital visitation rights, power of attorney, sharing of benefits, adoption of children, etc.). There is no other way for a gay couple to achieve these rights that legally married couples have.

I am coming from a legal perspective here, not a religious one. This is the only way that a gay couple can achieve legal rights in the secular world.

Also, after seeing footage of children in orphanages around the world and war ridden zones with children in the middle, a child is better off in a loving safe home even if it is “dad” and “uncle”. I may not understand it or agree with it completely.

God did not intend for it to be this way, but at the same time, I also believe that married gay couples can enter Heaven like the rest of us.

 

[fix]

I am sad to read Catholics claiming the state should allow homosexual unions as valid under the guise of “rights” and such. Not only has the Church said we have an obligation to oppose such laws, it shows that we think the state has the authority to alter the natural law and it does not matter it society.

 

[Newbie2]

I have noticed that the people that voted yes are very silent in this thread. That being said, I voted Yes.

I do not believe that the Catholic Church should ever marry a gay couple as it is a holy sacrament, but if two people love eachother and want to legalize their bond, so they have access rights to eachother, then from a secular perspective, it makes sense (inheritance, hospital visitation rights, power of attorney, sharing of benefits, adoption of children, etc.). There is no other way for a gay couple to achieve these rights that legally married couples have.
I am coming from a legal perspective here, not a religious one. This is the only way that a gay couple can achieve legal rights in the secular world.

Also, after seeing footage of children in orphanages around the world and war ridden zones with children in the middle, a child is better off in a loving safe home even if it is “dad” and “uncle”. I may not understand it or agree with it completely.

God did not intend for it to be this way, but at the same time, I also believe that married gay couples can enter Heaven like the rest of us.

Then you must doubt the words of St. Paul, eh?

Perhaps in Canada, but in the USA one can set up inheritance, hospital visitation, power of attorney, etc. through existing legal channels. Perhaps these things could be made easier to do, and I doubt that anyone here would have problems with that. But changing marriage? No. There is ***way ***more to the agenda of changing marriage than having these benefits.

 

[gayandcatholic]

I don’t condem anyone. I’m sorry if I gave that impression. I wouldn’t mind even having a gay friend so long as he kept himself to himself. Gays can be some of the best people out there. What I do not agree with is in gay marriage being legalized. You can be gay, there is nothing wrong with being gay. What is wrong is that a gay marriage gose against the laws of life and (sorry but it dose) love. As I said before, for marriage to contain true love it must be fruitful. Gay marraige can’t.

And as much as you hate the “adam and steve” joke, you must see the trueth in it.
If God had created us to be with the same sex, don’t you think it would have been adam and steve and not adam and eve?

Justin, How big of you" You wouldn’t mind having a gay friend as long as he kept to himself". What does that mean? As long as he doesn’t try and touch you or something because you know how those sex fiends are… or as long as he doesn’t share any part of his life with you, anything that might make you feel “icky”?
Man, I just can’t believe the bigoted,superior atitudes that pass for social intercourse.

Laws of life and love. Are you high?! My partner and I have two children, one with Downs syndrome and one who was so abused when we got her she slept in a corner of her bedroom with a pillow over her head so she would not be beaten in her sleep. We have two dogs, three cats, and a hamster. That is not fruitful? How dare you! What are you doing with your day after sitting in Judgement!

The only thing I worry about is my rights by LAW. We should ALL BE EQUAL as far as partnership rights are concerned. Your reply just drips with self righteous homophobia and you don’t even see it. Why is it that one little verse in Leviticus gets you all so riled up? Is it just because we won’t sit down in the back of the bus? I don’t see screaming mobs trying to bring about the end of divorce, something that our Lord ACTUALLY MENTIONED.
How about banning shellfish which according to the good book is also an anomination. Why don’t you get some of your like minded mob to torch a Long John Silvers? It would make just as much sense as talking smack about people who are just trying to do the best they can with the cards that they are dealt in this life and try to treat with love all who we meet on our path as we are commanded.

 

[Tosk]

I have noticed that the people that voted yes are very silent in this thread. That being said, I voted Yes.

I do not believe that the Catholic Church should ever marry a gay couple as it is a holy sacrament, but if two people love eachother and want to legalize their bond, so they have access rights to eachother, then from a secular perspective, it makes sense (inheritance, hospital visitation rights, power of attorney, sharing of benefits, adoption of children, etc.). There is no other way for a gay couple to achieve these rights that legally married couples have.

I am coming from a legal perspective here, not a religious one. This is the only way that a gay couple can achieve legal rights in the secular world.

Also, after seeing footage of children in orphanages around the world and war ridden zones with children in the middle, a child is better off in a loving safe home even if it is “dad” and “uncle”. I may not understand it or agree with it completely.

God did not intend for it to be this way, but at the same time, I also believe that married gay couples can enter Heaven like the rest of us.

Ok, but under your definition there is not any reason that I wouldn’t be able to marry my brother. I love him and I really want the tax benefits of being married. Why shouldn’t I be able to get married? Or say two best friends want to share the benefits of marriage. Why shouldn’t they also be able to get married? If we extend marriage to any two people who are in love, I don’t really see why it has to be two people who are in love and have a sexual relationship. But then it becomes unclear why we should have a ceremony at all.

 

[Newbie2]

Man, I just can’t believe the bigoted,superior atitudes that pass for social intercourse.

Agreed. Perhaps when people throw words like “bigoted” around it adds gas to the fire.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Ok, but under your definition there is not any reason that I wouldn’t be able to marry my brother. I love him and I really want the tax benefits of being married. Why shouldn’t I be able to get married? Or say two best friends want to share the benefits of marriage. Why shouldn’t they also be able to get married? If we extend marriage to any two people who are in love, I don’t really see why it has to be two people who are in love and have a sexual relationship. But then it becomes unclear why we should have a ceremony at all.

Exactly.I read there actually is a brother & sister couple in Germany who have had children together & are asking to be legally wed.They were “fruitful”.So, why not? And they probably believe, in a disordered way, that they love each other as a husband & wife should.
And why only two people in love? Why not three or more? The whole concept unravels…

 

[gayandcatholic]

Exactly.I read there actually is a brother & sister couple in Germany who have had children together & are asking to be legally wed.They were “fruitful”.So, why not? And they probably believe, in a disordered way, that they love each other as a husband & wife should.
And why only two people in love? Why not three or more? The whole concept unravels…

OK This is getting silly. Of course we will all be able to find strange couplings to cloud the issue. teachers want to marry their students, etc.

Of course a brother and sister cannot be married. They are related too closely by blood and the state has an invested interest in keeping them from haveing children because of the birth defects that are possible and may have to be paid for by the taxpayer.

We have already solved the plural marriage question in this country in the late 19th century. The Mormon church agreed that in order to make Utah a state that polygamy would have to cease. I do not see that being revisited but if it happens I am sure it will work itself out.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

I don’t condem anyone. I’m sorry if I gave that impression. I wouldn’t mind even having a gay friend so long as he kept himself to himself. Gays can be some of the best people out there. What I do not agree with is in gay marriage being legalized. You can be gay, there is nothing wrong with being gay. What is wrong is that a gay marriage gose against the laws of life and (sorry but it dose) love. As I said before, for marriage to contain true love it must be fruitful. Gay marraige can’t.

And as much as you hate the “adam and steve” joke, you must see the trueth in it.
If God had created us to be with the same sex, don’t you think it would have been adam and steve and not adam and eve?

Justin, How big of you" You wouldn’t mind having a gay friend as long as he kept to himself". What does that mean? As long as he doesn’t try and touch you or something because you know how those sex fiends are… or as long as he doesn’t share any part of his life with you, anything that might make you feel “icky”?
Man, I just can’t believe the bigoted,superior atitudes that pass for social intercourse.

Laws of life and love. Are you high?! My partner and I have two children, one with Downs syndrome and one who was so abused when we got her she slept in a corner of her bedroom with a pillow over her head so she would not be beaten in her sleep. We have two dogs, three cats, and a hamster. That is not fruitful? How dare you! What are you doing with your day after sitting in Judgement!

The only thing I worry about is my rights by LAW. We should ALL BE EQUAL as far as partnership rights are concerned. Your reply just drips with self righteous homophobia and you don’t even see it. Why is it that one little verse in Leviticus gets you all so riled up? Is it just because we won’t sit down in the back of the bus? I don’t see screaming mobs trying to bring about the end of divorce, something that our Lord ACTUALLY MENTIONED.
How about banning shellfish which according to the good book is also an anomination. Why don’t you get some of your like minded mob to torch a Long John Silvers? It would make just as much sense as talking smack about people who are just trying to do the best they can with the cards that they are dealt in this life and try to treat with love all who we meet on our path as we are commanded.

Well,what I view here is a charitable response followed by a rather strident,name calling response.

 

[Serap]

Laws of life and love. Are you high?! My partner and I have two children, one with Downs syndrome and one who was so abused when we got her she slept in a corner of her bedroom with a pillow over her head so she would not be beaten in her sleep. We have two dogs, three cats, and a hamster. That is not fruitful? How dare you! What are you doing with your day after sitting in Judgement!

The only thing I worry about is my rights by LAW. We should ALL BE EQUAL as far as partnership rights are concerned. Your reply just drips with self righteous homophobia and you don’t even see it. Why is it that one little verse in Leviticus gets you all so riled up? Is it just because we won’t sit down in the back of the bus? I don’t see screaming mobs trying to bring about the end of divorce, something that our Lord ACTUALLY MENTIONED.
How about banning shellfish which according to the good book is also an anomination. Why don’t you get some of your like minded mob to torch a Long John Silvers? It would make just as much sense as talking smack about people who are just trying to do the best they can with the cards that they are dealt in this life and try to treat with love all who we meet on our path as we are commanded.

I may not understand your gay life, but I too hate the self-righteous attitude that I see so often on CAF. God is merciful and forgiving.

You have a downsyndrome child and a child survivor of abuse. I bet they feel loved and are very happy in your home. This act of love is very moving to me. I bet with the abused child, you have seen tremendous progession and an improvement in his/her self-esteem and ability to learn.

You are a good man and I cannot cast judgement on you. I do not understand gay relationships myself - I’m just being honest. I wouldn’t agree with you marrying in a Catholic Church either, but I would like to see you and your family receive legal rights.

I’m just being really honest with you.

Someone mentioned above that St. Paul said a gay couple cannot enter Heaven. I’d like to see that quote please.

 

[Tosk]

Of course a brother and sister cannot be married. They are related too closely by blood and the state has an invested interest in keeping them from haveing children because of the birth defects that are possible and may have to be paid for by the taxpayer.

We have already solved the plural marriage question in this country in the late 19th century. The Mormon church agreed that in order to make Utah a state that polygamy would have to cease. I do not see that being revisited but if it happens I am sure it will work itself out.

The brother and sister would have to have sex to have children. I am not talking about incest here at all. I am talking about a legal union of two people who love each other very much, and want to enter into a legal union and receive the various benefits that come with that union. Who are we to deny the legal avenue they need to formalize their love for each other? Marriage is about love – not sex.

 

[edwest2]

I voted “no”, and I agree with the teachings of the RCC. I would offer this though. I think I would like to see the Govt. get out of the marriage buisness all together. Marriage would then be a matter only for religous institutions and be free of any Govt. influence, or intrusion.
Some would argue that this would reduce or eliminate the tax benefits given to married couples. I say, so be it. Anything it takes to keep the Govt. out of our lives and redefining our bedrock institutions.

Wait a minute. Did the government start the push for gay marriage?

Give me a break. By making marriage a private contract then there is an end run around the natural order and every mix and match ‘marriage’ combination gets in.

Who is trying to redefine marriage? The government?

And what happens to the bedrock instution of marriage when multiple people get involved or the Man-Boy Love Association or those people who refer to their practice of ‘mammal to mammal’ love?

Peace,
Ed

 

[Serap]

Well,what I view here is a charitable response followed by a rather strident,name calling response.

No. What you’re viewing is a man that has been condemned his whole life and his anger is coming across in this thread.

Can you blame him if he has been beaten and had insults thrown at him his whole life?

Many sheltered Catholics here on CAF (and this is a blessing) do not understand nor can understand what it’s like to be on the receiving end of hatred and abuse. I’ve noticed that people who have suffered greatly in this world are more understanding and generous.

 

[fix]

Wait a minute. Did the government start the push for gay marriage?

Give me a break. By making marriage a private contract then there is an end run around the natural order and every mix and match ‘marriage’ combination gets in.

Who is trying to redefine marriage? The government?

And what happens to the bedrock instution of marriage when multiple people get involved or the Man-Boy Love Association or those people who refer to their practice of ‘mammal to mammal’ love?

Peace,
Ed

It is lost on those with eyes, yet refuse to see.

 

[vppoole]

Who thinks that gay ‘marriage’ should be legalized? Why do you think that?

Pax!

 

[Cracker_Mom]

No. What you’re viewing is a man that has been condemned his whole life and his anger is coming across in this thread.

Can you blame him if he has been beaten and had insults thrown at him his whole life?

Many sheltered Catholics here on CAF (and this is a blessing) do not understand nor can understand what it’s like to be on the receiving end of hatred and abuse. I’ve noticed that people who have suffered greatly in this world are more understanding and generous.

Oh, I don’t know.I bet there are many posters here who have seen their share of bumps (& a few train wrecks) along life’s road but can still discuss an issue of morality & law from a Catholic point of view without resorting to name calling & vitriol.And that should apply to both sides of an issue.But emotions don’t change Church teaching.
I see men occasionally writing about women’s issues without a clue from a personal standpoint, but they can still validly argue from a theological vantage point.
I believe in free speech & a poster has the right to vent here if he or she chooses & it personally annoys me when a forum person ends a thread for “lack of charity” or something, but I also have a right to comment on what I read.

 

[fix]

What I’m looking for in this thread, is to have a level headed conversation, or unheated debate on the subject. I want to know the reasons why people do or do not support gay marriage. You could call it a type of “project”.

Your answer is right here:

From the order of right reason
The scope of the civil law is certainly more limited than that of the moral law,(11) but civil law cannot contradict right reason without losing its binding force on conscience.(12) Every humanly-created law is legitimate insofar as it is consistent with the natural moral law, recognized by right reason, and insofar as it respects the inalienable rights of every person.(13) Laws in favour of homosexual unions are contrary to right reason because they confer legal guarantees, analogous to those granted to marriage, to unions between persons of the same sex…

Please read all of it, but I say to you even if you stop right here you can say that what you ask is really self evident, at least used to be prior to desensitization to truth.

 

[Shredderbeam]

Yes, I think that it should be. It would grant same-sex couples the same tax exemptions and legal status as other married couples, which is only fair.

 

[fix]

Yes, I think that it should be. It would grant same-sex couples the same tax exemptions and legal status as other married couples, which is only fair.

Can’t see how it is fair unless you view marriage as arbitrary.