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chevalier
Guest
Isn’t Amish too modern? And that hat wouldn’t look good with my sword. And I kinda wanted chainmail too…
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sanctamaria17
Guest
I’m not trying to pull anyone apart…And I’m sorry if I came off that way…
I’m just pointing out the errors of suggesting that good Catholics have to be one way or the other on things…or that we should seclude ourselves…because that IS the Amish lifestyle…but it’s not what Christ asked us to do…
Though when you point out, “they don’t drink or smoke” as an appearance of holiness, we have to remember that Jesus DID…that partaking in these things does not make one automatically holy…and I was pointing out that my ancestors, a good portion of whom were either Orthodox Jews or Mediterranean Catholics and known for strong faith, would have an issue with the idea of abstaining from alcohol as a path to holiness…because Jews are known for wine at religious ceremonies and Catholics in Southern Europe have proudly carried that aspect as part of their culture…I wasn’t trying to be snarky…I was saying my ancestors would have had a good laugh…my Italian dad and Portuguese uncle are known for saying, “If Jesus had made that much wine at a wedding, we’re OK”…I wasn’t making fun of people who abstain but stating that it isn’t an automatic path to holiness…and one of your quotes was, “Drinking or other impurities…” Drinking is a personal choice, an individual decision and the greater issue is imprudence, not the fermented grape juice or grain drink…I would not want any of my alcoholic family members near alcohol, but that doesn’t mean I can’t have a Chianti and steak with my mom and dad…or Sangria/tapas/paella with my family…
As for education, nowhere was I making fun of anyone who doesn’t go on for more education…but that I do worry when people say it’s wrong to go on for more or that it encourages evil rather than good…especially during a time when we NEED to know what’s going on. The pro-life movement NEEDS scientists and doctors who can testify and say that babies ARE alive and they DO feel pain. The government NEEDS smart, educated leaders who are also compassionate and care about what the people, from conception to natural death, need more than their own political ambition. Corporations NEED leaders who are ethical and care about their workers, their planet and their customers more than turning Almighty God into an Almighty Dollar. Nowhere did I say that everyone in the world needs a college degree, but it’s misguided to discourage a young and intellectual Catholic from going when it could be their chance to strengthen their gifts and make a difference.
I’m sorry if you were offended. That’s not my intent. I was just saying that it may seem like a good idea but it’s erroneous to assert that good Catholics should imitate a lifestyle because it looks holy. It may sound good on paper but it’s not for everyone. Just as not every good Catholic is called to a cloister, not everyone is this.
And also saying that not all of us who have Facebook, go to college, dress like our contemporaries, listen to music, use Youtube, etc. are not necessarily bad Catholics, nor necessarily tempted by anymore impurity than anyone else. And if we’re keeping our kids blind and not exposing them, then expecting them to handle it as adults when they’re either 18 or married…we’re going to have greater issues…
I’m just pointing out the errors of suggesting that good Catholics have to be one way or the other on things…or that we should seclude ourselves…because that IS the Amish lifestyle…but it’s not what Christ asked us to do…
Though when you point out, “they don’t drink or smoke” as an appearance of holiness, we have to remember that Jesus DID…that partaking in these things does not make one automatically holy…and I was pointing out that my ancestors, a good portion of whom were either Orthodox Jews or Mediterranean Catholics and known for strong faith, would have an issue with the idea of abstaining from alcohol as a path to holiness…because Jews are known for wine at religious ceremonies and Catholics in Southern Europe have proudly carried that aspect as part of their culture…I wasn’t trying to be snarky…I was saying my ancestors would have had a good laugh…my Italian dad and Portuguese uncle are known for saying, “If Jesus had made that much wine at a wedding, we’re OK”…I wasn’t making fun of people who abstain but stating that it isn’t an automatic path to holiness…and one of your quotes was, “Drinking or other impurities…” Drinking is a personal choice, an individual decision and the greater issue is imprudence, not the fermented grape juice or grain drink…I would not want any of my alcoholic family members near alcohol, but that doesn’t mean I can’t have a Chianti and steak with my mom and dad…or Sangria/tapas/paella with my family…
As for education, nowhere was I making fun of anyone who doesn’t go on for more education…but that I do worry when people say it’s wrong to go on for more or that it encourages evil rather than good…especially during a time when we NEED to know what’s going on. The pro-life movement NEEDS scientists and doctors who can testify and say that babies ARE alive and they DO feel pain. The government NEEDS smart, educated leaders who are also compassionate and care about what the people, from conception to natural death, need more than their own political ambition. Corporations NEED leaders who are ethical and care about their workers, their planet and their customers more than turning Almighty God into an Almighty Dollar. Nowhere did I say that everyone in the world needs a college degree, but it’s misguided to discourage a young and intellectual Catholic from going when it could be their chance to strengthen their gifts and make a difference.
I’m sorry if you were offended. That’s not my intent. I was just saying that it may seem like a good idea but it’s erroneous to assert that good Catholics should imitate a lifestyle because it looks holy. It may sound good on paper but it’s not for everyone. Just as not every good Catholic is called to a cloister, not everyone is this.
And also saying that not all of us who have Facebook, go to college, dress like our contemporaries, listen to music, use Youtube, etc. are not necessarily bad Catholics, nor necessarily tempted by anymore impurity than anyone else. And if we’re keeping our kids blind and not exposing them, then expecting them to handle it as adults when they’re either 18 or married…we’re going to have greater issues…
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OLHope
Guest
I only directed the last line to the OP which I only found out was you now, as I only looked at the line on my dialogue box to conclude it. I could go on, but I am going to retract before it really gets defensive in here.
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Sr_Sally
Guest
Certainly good Catholics should avoid the ‘near occasion’ of sin. That will be different for each person. Many things the Amish are known for are particularly praiseworthy–their close family and neighborhood attachments for example. Other things they do are more ritualistic, for example, their specific clothing and hairstyle choices. Yes modest dress is important, but not using buttons is not required to be modest, neither is wearing a beard, or suspenders.
I think we as Catholics, need to look to Catholic role models, rather than the romantized lifestyle of the Amish. Read St Francis de Sales’ Introduction to a Devout Life or something similar and draw your inspiration from that.
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OLHope
Guest
Isn’t Amish too modern? And that hat wouldn’t look good with my sword. And I kinda wanted chainmail too…
Again, thanks you for lighting up the thread:newidea:
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Ceil-1
Guest
I haven’t explained myself well.
The area I grew up in was heavily influenced by Wesleyan and Mennonite people.
Wesleyans live a holy life, but are the same in every way as the rest of us, with TV, etc. It is a beautiful church, Catholic in many of its ways, unbeknownst to them. They don’t drink, smoke, dance, and the older ones don’t play cards. They are similar to Corrie Ten Boom’s religion in The Hiding Place.
Mennonites are like the Amish in that they dress like them, but drive cars, go to public school, use modern amenities. They do not watch television. They also tend to be pacifist; I’m not sure if they vote or enter the service, I think they vote.
In any case, the Wesleyans seem to be subject to the same pitfalls as the rest of the world: teen pregnancy, drinking, drugs, etc., though at a lesser rate.
I did not encounter that in the Mennonites. They seemed aware they were set apart. Yet, they were joyful and kind, evangelical. They were not afraid to befriend a non-Mennonite. They were in no way a cult, and did not believe you have to be a Mennonite to reach heaven. Indeed, they are quite ecumenical. Lovely people. Frankly, they were an inspiration, and put the rest of us mainstream Christians to shame with their behavior. Had I not known better, I would have chosen either Mennonite or Wesleyan as my religion.
I guess what I am saying is, that, setting ourselves apart, as Scripture says, has its purpose and may be what God desires. We have relegated it to our religious, only. But, should we? These people obviously have lost the most important part, the Sacraments. But, they try all the harder. Many of them would be great saints had they our advantages, instead of a rare minority, as in our Faith.
So, what is missing in us? Are we called to be set apart in such a way?
I guess that is what I am trying to question by this thread.
The area I grew up in was heavily influenced by Wesleyan and Mennonite people.
Wesleyans live a holy life, but are the same in every way as the rest of us, with TV, etc. It is a beautiful church, Catholic in many of its ways, unbeknownst to them. They don’t drink, smoke, dance, and the older ones don’t play cards. They are similar to Corrie Ten Boom’s religion in The Hiding Place.
Mennonites are like the Amish in that they dress like them, but drive cars, go to public school, use modern amenities. They do not watch television. They also tend to be pacifist; I’m not sure if they vote or enter the service, I think they vote.
In any case, the Wesleyans seem to be subject to the same pitfalls as the rest of the world: teen pregnancy, drinking, drugs, etc., though at a lesser rate.
I did not encounter that in the Mennonites. They seemed aware they were set apart. Yet, they were joyful and kind, evangelical. They were not afraid to befriend a non-Mennonite. They were in no way a cult, and did not believe you have to be a Mennonite to reach heaven. Indeed, they are quite ecumenical. Lovely people. Frankly, they were an inspiration, and put the rest of us mainstream Christians to shame with their behavior. Had I not known better, I would have chosen either Mennonite or Wesleyan as my religion.
I guess what I am saying is, that, setting ourselves apart, as Scripture says, has its purpose and may be what God desires. We have relegated it to our religious, only. But, should we? These people obviously have lost the most important part, the Sacraments. But, they try all the harder. Many of them would be great saints had they our advantages, instead of a rare minority, as in our Faith.
So, what is missing in us? Are we called to be set apart in such a way?
I guess that is what I am trying to question by this thread.
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Marsha_Adams
Guest
Ceil:
Look at the Plain Catholic site I posted the link for. I believe it answers your question.
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Catholic90
Guest
As for education, nowhere was I making fun of anyone who doesn’t go on for more education…but that I do worry when people say it’s wrong to go on for more or that it encourages evil rather than good…especially during a time when we NEED to know what’s going on. The pro-life movement NEEDS scientists and doctors who can testify and say that babies ARE alive and they DO feel pain. The government NEEDS smart, educated leaders who are also compassionate and care about what the people, from conception to natural death, need more than their own political ambition. Corporations NEED leaders who are ethical and care about their workers, their planet and their customers more than turning Almighty God into an Almighty Dollar. Nowhere did I say that everyone in the world needs a college degree, but it’s misguided to discourage a young and intellectual Catholic from going when it could be their chance to strengthen their gifts and make a difference.
You are exactly right! We need to encourage upstanding, morally sound people to continue their education and be the leaders. If we do not, we will be led by …well, like many of the people in leadership roles now, unfortunately.
And also saying that not all of us who have Facebook, go to college, dress like our contemporaries, listen to music, use Youtube, etc. are not necessarily bad Catholics, nor necessarily tempted by anymore impurity than anyone else. And if we’re keeping our kids blind and not exposing them, then expecting them to handle it as adults when they’re either 18 or married…we’re going to have greater issues…
Right on! Someone from our church homeschooled their kids. The parents were VERY orthodox and very strict in bringing their kids up as faithful Catholics. They had no TV, could not socialize outside their homeschool coop, and were VERY sheltered. Their eldest son graduated and went to college. For the first time, he lived away from home and found himself among kids who watched TV, surfed the net, and were…well, basically your average college student.. He could not handle it. He failed his classes the first semester, but instead of moving back home, he moved in with a new girlfriend (his first). Mom and dad hit the roof, of course, and they have not heard from him since (it’s been about 4 years now).
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Sabda
Guest
What advantages do we have that they don’t? Why does our Faith have more saints than theirs? Our Faith is in the world but not of it. Our people go out into the world and walk, talk, eat and live amoung everyone else. It has been like that since the begining. Our people try to incorpate that which is good and godly into what we do. They only thing we shun is that which truly is sinful. If it’s morally neutral it’s still not a problem. We are called to receive Christ in the Eucharist. We are then told to take him out into the world. We can’t do that if we are living in our own personally secluded community.
When I look at the Amish, I see a people who are trying to live in the past. The 1800s to be exact. I don’t see a people who believe in making life better for all. Seriously, think about what life was like in the 1800s and then think about how the Amish live. It’s very similar. Living without modern conviences does not make your life holy. Living your life for God is what makes your life holy. You can do that even with all the modern conviences. There where just as many sinners in the 1800s as there are today.
Last comment I wanted to make for the night.
Forgive me but that sounds like they are trying to dumb their children down so they won’t leave. Why would you not want you child to learn all they could? That is how progress, REAL progress is made in the world. Would Penicillin have been invented if that person’s parents had only taught him what was necessary instead of allowing him to learn all he could? Think about how many lives that one person changed. How many lives he saved because he was allowed to use his talent to it’s fullest extent. God calls us to use our talents, not squash them. What better way to use your talents than out in the world.
Have a blessed night all, and a blessed tomorrow.
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sanctamaria17
Guest
I also like to add that Jesus hung out with the prostitutes, addicts, and immoral people. Yes, the command was to go and sin no more but He was not afraid to not only go out into the world but to charge His apostles to do likewise.
Also, Catholics can never really have a set culture. The beauty of our faith is that we are universal. An American Catholic, an Italian Catholic, a Salvadorian Catholic, a Filipino Catholic, and a Kenyan Catholic will have the same faith at the end of the day, with the same Mass, but certainly different modes of expressing that faith. Even modesty standards are different. I saw a Thai painting of the Holy Mother and Child, our Blessed Mother was wearing a top that showed her navel and a pair of pants, with bare feet. She is not, nor should she ever be considered immodest, it’s just that they have different standards in Thailand than we do. Even older European paintings show her covered but with her breast fully exposed while nursing…people give American women a hard time if they merely THINK she is nursing…
God does not want us to do what looks holy, but what is. It doesn’t matter what you wear (within limits) as much as, can you hold your tongue before you say what you’ll regret? Can you offer a helping hand, even if it inconveniences you? Can you speak the Truth, even if you are afraid of the consequences? Can you say no to pre-marital sex, even as your body says yes and your heart cries for the person? And if you should fail, do you have the humility to admit you sinned and seek God’s forgiveness in Confession? THAT is what He wants of us…everything about culture and expression is up to the individual’s call and way of serving Him.
Also, Catholics can never really have a set culture. The beauty of our faith is that we are universal. An American Catholic, an Italian Catholic, a Salvadorian Catholic, a Filipino Catholic, and a Kenyan Catholic will have the same faith at the end of the day, with the same Mass, but certainly different modes of expressing that faith. Even modesty standards are different. I saw a Thai painting of the Holy Mother and Child, our Blessed Mother was wearing a top that showed her navel and a pair of pants, with bare feet. She is not, nor should she ever be considered immodest, it’s just that they have different standards in Thailand than we do. Even older European paintings show her covered but with her breast fully exposed while nursing…people give American women a hard time if they merely THINK she is nursing…
God does not want us to do what looks holy, but what is. It doesn’t matter what you wear (within limits) as much as, can you hold your tongue before you say what you’ll regret? Can you offer a helping hand, even if it inconveniences you? Can you speak the Truth, even if you are afraid of the consequences? Can you say no to pre-marital sex, even as your body says yes and your heart cries for the person? And if you should fail, do you have the humility to admit you sinned and seek God’s forgiveness in Confession? THAT is what He wants of us…everything about culture and expression is up to the individual’s call and way of serving Him.
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Catholic90
Guest
Exactly. You can keep them uninformed and dependent knowing “just what is necessary” OR you can give them wings and let them soar to new heights. Education is a wonderful thing…learning all you can about something is an exciting thing…Knowledge is power.Forgive me but that sounds like they are trying to dumb their children down so they won’t leave. Why would you not want you child to learn all they could? That is how progress, REAL progress is made in the world. Would Penicillin have been invented if that person’s parents had only taught him what was necessary instead of allowing him to learn all he could? Think about how many lives that one person changed. How many lives he saved because he was allowed to use his talent to it’s fullest extent. God calls us to use our talents, not squash them. What better way to use your talents than out in the world.
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leonie
Guest
Here’s the parts of the Plain lifestyle that I like and would like to modify into my life if possible.
a few outfits of simple, well made modest clothing–but, I wouldn’t want to stand out in a crowd.
**
restrict some outside influences**–limit tv, computer, some songs and movies and books.
**simpler diet **with fewer convenience/restaurant food
a garden and some livestock–we are raising a steer right now and have some eggs. Right now we mooch off my fil’s extensive garden.
a family business–I’d like to do this, but my dh isn’t very excited about the idea, so it probably won’t happen.
leisure activities family oriented–preferring group activities over individual sports/lessons
Being neighborly: having a sense of community in your neighborhood and parish in which you reach out to each other to share resources and talents. Modern day experiences of barn raising and quilting circles
Encouraging my kids to court not date.
I don’t want to give up any of my appliances–my 99 year old grandmother who passed away in April said the best invention during her lifetime was the washing machine. I think washing clothes was a really tedious and time consuming chore before the washing machine.
I have a few more thoughts that I will save for later. The baby is fussing.
a few outfits of simple, well made modest clothing–but, I wouldn’t want to stand out in a crowd.
**
restrict some outside influences**–limit tv, computer, some songs and movies and books.
**simpler diet **with fewer convenience/restaurant food
a garden and some livestock–we are raising a steer right now and have some eggs. Right now we mooch off my fil’s extensive garden.
a family business–I’d like to do this, but my dh isn’t very excited about the idea, so it probably won’t happen.
leisure activities family oriented–preferring group activities over individual sports/lessons
Being neighborly: having a sense of community in your neighborhood and parish in which you reach out to each other to share resources and talents. Modern day experiences of barn raising and quilting circles
Encouraging my kids to court not date.
I don’t want to give up any of my appliances–my 99 year old grandmother who passed away in April said the best invention during her lifetime was the washing machine. I think washing clothes was a really tedious and time consuming chore before the washing machine.
I have a few more thoughts that I will save for later. The baby is fussing.
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shannyk
Guest
I can understand that for some, choosing a ‘plain’ lifestyle is appealing and a spiritual exercise, but for me it actually focuses a bit too much on outward appearances. I’d not choose it, as a Catholic I can live in the world, in the time God placed me, and not be of it. Being universal means all places all times all people, there isn’t just one way to be Catholic. As Catholics we should not be afraid IMHO to live in the place and time we’ve been put, it’s no accident.
Having said that I do like simplicity in many things, TV has only just made it’s way back into my house and it’s viewing is limited. A lot of accoutrement other people ‘need’, I can’t stand the idea of, yet there are conveniences like the PC and cell phone I couldn’t do without. In the times we’re in it’s more important to think about what you bring into your life because there is so MUCH that it can really pull you away from what’s important. I guess, this means more self discipline is in order.
Having said that I do like simplicity in many things, TV has only just made it’s way back into my house and it’s viewing is limited. A lot of accoutrement other people ‘need’, I can’t stand the idea of, yet there are conveniences like the PC and cell phone I couldn’t do without. In the times we’re in it’s more important to think about what you bring into your life because there is so MUCH that it can really pull you away from what’s important. I guess, this means more self discipline is in order.
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leonie
Guest
I think the most appealing aspect of the Plain lifestyle is the community aspect of it.
And, there is something attractive about having clear boundaries. I find myself making compromises all the time, esp. with entertainment.
Also, I like the way that the adolescents are given real work and apprenticeships in the mid teen years. I see that our teenagers seem to be floundering a little. I think this fits God’s plan better than our modern age where teens go to school, play sports and have so much leisure time. Even the work they do, like fast food or retail says, doesn’t seem right. The young men seem to need more physical and productive work. And, girls need productive work, too.
So, that aspect of the Amish life appeals to me, too. I’d love to see my sons working alongside their father on a farm or cottage industry.
And, there is something attractive about having clear boundaries. I find myself making compromises all the time, esp. with entertainment.
Also, I like the way that the adolescents are given real work and apprenticeships in the mid teen years. I see that our teenagers seem to be floundering a little. I think this fits God’s plan better than our modern age where teens go to school, play sports and have so much leisure time. Even the work they do, like fast food or retail says, doesn’t seem right. The young men seem to need more physical and productive work. And, girls need productive work, too.
So, that aspect of the Amish life appeals to me, too. I’d love to see my sons working alongside their father on a farm or cottage industry.
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Catholic90
Guest
That depends completely on the teen. Here was my oldest son’s schedule from March through mid-May:
6:30 am - wake up, shower, dress
7:00 am - leave for school
8:00 am - school begins
2:30 pm - school day ends
3:00 pm - play practice began
8:00 pm - practice ended
M,T,TH,F- come home, eat, homework
W - church youth group from 8-9:30, come home, eat, homework
12 midnight - go to bed
WHAT free time?
Regarding work, it is VERY difficult to find work for teens this summer. Each of mine has a job, but it is of their own inventing…lawn care, landscaping, construction. I think fast food and retail jobs are good for teens. It shows the teen why they should continue their education, unless that is the type of job they want their entire life!
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leonie
Guest
I’d consider the play practice free time. It’s a nice thing to do, but there’s no physical, productive work involved. Putting on a play though is certainly better than many other options!
I wasn’t really referring to how kids work here and now, but how it might be in a Amish type community–with teens working alongside their fathers or other adults in a field of work that they likely would do into their adulthood. Farming, carpentry, etc.
It’s really hard to replicate that in our society–that’s just one thing that I find attractive about that kind of community lifestyle. I don’t know if it’s doable in our society/time, etc.
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AHapka
Guest
If he’s practicing football, soccer, or another sport, there is plenty of physical work involved.
If the word “play” was meant in the literal sense, there could still be plenty of physical work involved. My wife used to dance. She had muscles, and there was plenty of physical work involved in doing it right. If it’s just a speaking role, though, you are right.
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leonie
Guest
I still think it needs to be productive…
Playing/leisure isn’t bad, of course. I’m just wondering if there’s too much of it for our teen boys. Girls, too, though.
Just thinking out loud, I mean, online…
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Ceil-1
Guest
Still obsessing about the education thing?
Okay, then. You (general term) wish to blend in and be one of the gang. Who doesn’t? What did God mean, then, when he said "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord and touch not the unclean thing, and I will recieve you. " (2Corinthians 6:17)?
So, what does it mean to be separate, and what does He mean by unclean thing? In what way are we different from our unbelieving neighbor? Just like the old saying, If you were on trial for being a Christian (insert Catholic if you prefer), would their be enough evidence to convict you?
And externals can help us internally. It forces an issue. For instance, wearing a crucifix may offend someone, but, attract another, just based on their feelings about God. It could become the source of suffering for the Lord, or a purification.
I’m pretty sure going around in a long, drab dress all the time would be a source of penance for many of us. Never mind Little House on the Prarie outfits. It would be particularly poignant if it were done for the love of God. It would become a habit, of sorts. Remember a habit is a sacramental to the wearer because it is worn for the love of God and does contribute to the person’s holiness.
You may scoff and scorn these people to make yourselves feel better, but, it could be that these people have justified themselves in the eyes of God for their sacrifices in His name. What have you done in the name of the Lord, lately? What they wear is a sign of total submission to God. When you wear such garb, it is total submission.
Dismiss it if you like, as outward works, but I would venture to guess that many of these people are pure of heart on the inside, in a way that would put most of us to shame. Yes, I admire these people’s dedication to God. Why shouldn’t I? It inspires me to try harder.
BTW, I love that website about the Plain Catholics.
I don’t understand it, because they said they did not live in a community situation. If they are isolated and scattered, it would be difficult to live that way.
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leonie
Guest
I think you lose a big benefit if you lose the community.Still obsessing about the education thing?
BTW, I love that website about the Plain Catholics.
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