Should good Catholics live the Amish Lifestyle?

[Ceil-1]

I am rather incredulous at the dynamics, scope and direction of this thread.

Why do some of you feel so threatened by my discussion of the Amish to the point that you would imply that I am insulting you? Perhaps the problem is just that, you are focusing on yourselves. My discussion has nothing to do with you. It is questioning the value and spiritual good of a strict rule of life to this particular degree.

I idolize the Amish because I merely mentioned that I admire their lifestyle? Have you known any? Well, I have. My parents are literally surrounded by them, have bought land from my father, and are eyeing my parents’ home when they are ready to sell. My parents have regular contact with them, as have I. Even on a social level, of sorts, to a neighborly degree. They use our phones, our trucks, car rides. We get their baked goods, crafts, needlework. It’s a nice barter, I think.

They are regular people like you and me. Not perfect, but, apparently trying harder than some of us. They are no worse or better. In God’s eyes, believe it or not, they are judged by their hearts like you and I. They may not be our best friends, but they certainly do not sit around gossiping and disparaging their neighbors just for the fun of it. Perhaps that’s why they keep working so hard, eh? They have a saying: Idle hands do the devil’s work. Apparently, they know something we don’t.

 

[Ceil-1]

C-90,

Free time is an essential component of a healthy lifestyle.

 

[Catholic90]

I’d be a bit worried about sleep time rather. The minimum is 7 hours and less than 6.5 is not enough.

Oh, I know he did not get enough sleep during the week! He would sleep in on Sunday mornings (and went to the Sunday evening LifeTeen mass). He is also making up for it now that it is summer. Arising by 12 noon on his days off is early for him!

C-90,

Free time is an essential component of a healthy lifestyle.

Agreed. He has some now that it is summer. It is much harder to come by during school, though, especially for someone who takes a load of difficult classes and is involved in extracurricular and church activities.

 

[Sabda]

Ceil-1,

Maybe you would like to answer some of the questions that have been asked.

My original response was because of this post by you.

Post #45.

For example I asked:

What advantages do we have that they don’t? Why does our Faith have more saints than theirs? Our Faith is in the world but not of it. Our people go out into the world and walk, talk, eat and live amoung everyone else. It has been like that since the begining. Our people try to incorpate that which is good and godly into what we do. They only thing we shun is that which truly is sinful. If it’s morally neutral it’s still not a problem. We are called to receive Christ in the Eucharist. We are then told to take him out into the world. We can’t do that if we are living in our own personally secluded community.

You never did answer this, and also:

Just because someone looks clean on the outside does not make them clean on the inside. Would a devout Christian African woman who is wearing the native dress for her area (I’m thinking of the ones who go bare breasted here) be any less holy than an Amish woman simply because of her dress? You can be holy regardless of what your wearing or not wearing.

I think BiologyBrain pretty much summond up the facts.

Post #36 from BiologyBrain.

There is a group called Holiness Pentecostals. In regard to appareances they are, to my eye, similar to the Amish. In fact the older groups also shun tv, they practice close family gatherings like the Amish etc. If you meet them and spent a little time talking to them, they would for all appareances appear to be quite holy. I know for a fact they are no more holy than anyone else. Fil’s side of the family is Holiness as is my dil and her side of the family. That’s why I asked if you had personally been in their homes and knew them some what intimately.

To answer your question. Do I think we should live like the Amish? First off we need to keep in mind that we live in the 21st. Century, not the 19th. Living in the past while the rest of the world moves forward does not solve any problems. Even many of the monasteries have internet access and other modern items. If that lifestyle leads one to thinking that things such as tvs and computers are evil and should be shunned than no we should not. Pope Benedict stated that we should take advantage of these modern conviences to help evangelize the world.

Yes, the simplicity of the lifestyle is appealing. But it also leads to a very hard life, in the fact that they don’t use modern conveniences. There is nothing wrong or evil with modern conveniences. They are morally neutral in themselves. It’s what we do with them that makes it sinful or not.

We have plenty of wonderful examples to follow in our own Church in our search for a holier life. We should start our search there.

 

[slyboots]

My previous post was to bring attention to the possibility that we do not need to become Amish to live lives of quiet dignity and worship of our Lord. We do not need to lose our Mass, our saints, our Blessed Mother or any of the richness of our Catholic faith to become people who live simple lives. We do not need to become Amish to wear modest clothing. Or to be part of a rural community.
Lose your tv. Eat whole foods which you cook from scratch. Garden or farm or both. Raise critters. Spend time quietly restoratively by contemplating the love of God.
But there is no reason to lose the Catholic faith to do this.
Eric Brende wrote a lovely book called Better Offabout moving to a rural simple community. Here is a web site interview with him. he seems a bright person.
oldarchive.godspy.com/reviews/The-Simple-Life-Redux-An-Interview-with-Eric-Brende-by-John-Zmirak.cfm.html
There’s some Catholic folks in the Upper Penisula of Michigan who are attempting to live this way. Their website is home-n-stead.com/
And I am sure there are others.

And Sabda, I live near OKC. Where are you?

 

[dixieagle]

I am rather incredulous at the dynamics, scope and direction of this thread.

Why do some of you feel so threatened by my discussion of the Amish to the point that you would imply that I am insulting you? Perhaps the problem is just that, you are focusing on yourselves. My discussion has nothing to do with you. It is questioning the value and spiritual good of a strict rule of life to this particular degree.

I idolize the Amish because I merely mentioned that I admire their lifestyle? Have you known any? Well, I have. My parents are literally surrounded by them, have bought land from my father, and are eyeing my parents’ home when they are ready to sell. My parents have regular contact with them, as have I. Even on a social level, of sorts, to a neighborly degree. They use our phones, our trucks, car rides. We get their baked goods, crafts, needlework. It’s a nice barter, I think.

They are regular people like you and me. Not perfect, but, apparently trying harder than some of us. They are no worse or better. In God’s eyes, believe it or not, they are judged by their hearts like you and I. They may not be our best friends, but they certainly do not sit around gossiping and disparaging their neighbors just for the fun of it. Perhaps that’s why they keep working so hard, eh? They have a saying: Idle hands do the devil’s work. Apparently, they know something we don’t.

I’m sure they are decent, hardworking and honest folks, for the most part (no community, no matter how cozy and old-fashioned it appears, especially in these hard economic times, is perfect.) However, the bottom line is that they don’t have the fullness of Truth that we in the Catholic Church are privileged to possess.

Simplify your life if that appeals to you, certainly emphasize close family ties, de-emphasize materialism, but don’t romanticize a group of people whose Anabaptist theology was born out of a direct repudiation of Catholic beliefs (infant baptism, to begin with.)

I’d say that it is much more appropriate to say that WE, as Catholics, know something (quite important) that they don’t.

 

[Ceil-1]

I don’t think any of you have understood any of my points. You are taking my example of the Amish too concretely.

C’mon, dixieagle, I am not romanticizing anybody. I was merely defending them from the disparagment they automatically received because they weren’t Catholic, and their fundamentalist views.

It is something to ponder, folks, that the Amish are so difficult to convert to other religions, particularly Catholic. I don’t believe they are a cult, though some of the dynamics of one may be present to prevent desertion. A high percentage of them freely choose to stay.

I do get the impression, from reading about the Saints, the Bible, and Friars who promote Franciscan spirituality that God approves of and **blesses: ** 1. a rule of life, 2. simplicity 3. family businesses 4. community life. It may not be essential to salvation, but, is assistive and promotes and and manifests God’s Kingdom on earth. I do beleive the new heaven and earth will have the component of community.

Another example of this type of lifestyle is illustrated in the missions of the south west. The movie The Missionportrayed some of these missions. They were like heaven on earth. Perhaps that is a better example. I do believe life on the new earth, when we inhabit our glorified bodies (please, God), will be very much like this.

Thanks, Slyboots, for the links. I will definitely check them out.

I am beginning to think I posted this in the wrong thread, and used the wrong words to intorduce the topic. Sabda, I did address your questions. I am not interested in their theology. It is wrong.

 

[Em_in_FL]

I don’t think any of you have understood any of my points. You are taking my example of the Amish too concretely.

C’mon, dixieagle, I am not romanticizing anybody. I was merely defending them from the disparagment they automatically received because they weren’t Catholic, and their fundamentalist views.

It is something to ponder, folks, that the Amish are so difficult to convert to other religions, particularly Catholic. I don’t believe they are a cult, though some of the dynamics of one may be present to prevent desertion. A high percentage of them freely choose to stay.

I do get the impression, from reading about the Saints, the Bible, and Friars who promote Franciscan spirituality that God approves of and **blesses: ** 1. a rule of life, 2. simplicity 3. family businesses 4. community life. It may not be essential to salvation, but, is assistive and promotes and and manifests God’s Kingdom on earth. I do beleive the new heaven and earth will have the component of community.

Another example of this type of lifestyle is illustrated in the missions of the south west. The movie The Missionportrayed some of these missions. They were like heaven on earth. Perhaps that is a better example. I do believe life on the new earth, when we inhabit our glorified bodies (please, God), will be very much like this.

Thanks, Slyboots, for the links. I will definitely check them out.

I am beginning to think I posted this in the wrong thread, and used the wrong words to intorduce the topic. Sabda, I did address your questions. I am not interested in their theology. It is wrong.

I understand what you’re saying and I do agree… yes, the “lifestyle” you are describing is one that narrows our focus and can be useful… for SOME. Dictating that things should be “this way and only this way” is problematic, though. Yes, it is ONE beautiful lifestyle, but it’s not a singular road to holiness. The very word “CATHOLIC” means “UNIVERSAL” and I think that’s the most important thing to remember…

 

[sanctamaria17]

And don’t forget that some of us have had very godly encounters in the city…bad things happen in rural or suburban areas just like they do cities…but God is in all of them…

I agree with Em about universality…I feel I’ve learned more about the universal church living in the city and going into poorer areas than in my “safe” nearly rural suburb (and I say “safe” because I’ve had some scary occurrences there). I mean, God needs people there too, to minister to His people…and to not be afraid to go to people in power and implore them to stand for the least of society…

You can live simply in the city, too and have a simple diet…you can dress modestly in contemporary clothes and you can still have some community no matter where you are…You just have to build it…

God blesses all who try to live for Him and serve Him in whatever lifestyle they are in at the moment…whether you have your family business in a rural area or whether you’re working for the World Bank or the U.S. government…as there were people like St. Francis, there were also people like St. Gianna who had their careers and love of travel and fashion but still gave their lives to God, sometimes quite literally (in her case, for her little daughter who is now a doctor herself)…

I think what most of us had a problem with is not your preference for that lifestyle, but the assertion that EVERY Catholic has to live like that…We just DON’T live in the 1800’s anymore and God doesn’t favor time periods, He favors holiness. Holiness is dependent on the love you have for God and neighbor and your willingness to do and stand up for what is right, not on the dress you wear or whether or not you have a Facebook account. If you find that you personally get closer to Him through that type of lifestyle, that’s great, but not all of us do. And don’t forget, you have other saints who did live in cities and with modern conveniences, as well as martyrs who did the same…God didn’t ask them if they were modern, He asked if they lived for Him and their answers were all a resounding YES.

 

[Sarabande]

I grew up not too far from Lancaster, PA and was totally intrigued by the Amish way of life. I was also very much into the Little House books and books by L.M. Montgomery back then, as well as pretty much against modern way of living, so when I was a girl, I REALLY wanted to live like the Amish.

I still think there is something beautiful about their simplistic lifestyle, but it’s not an easy life either. Farming is hard, which I don’t think I could handle very well. I think I could get used to not showering every day, although I hate the way I feel after a day or two of not bathing. But I don’t think I could handle primitive dentistry. And being susceptible to urinary tract infections, I don’t think I’d ever want to go through my life without the use of antibiotics. I probably would want to stay a spinster if I lived the Amish lifestyle. I also don’t know how I would feel about them shunning family who choose to not fully go into the Amish life. I saw a documentary about young Amish men and women who go through a period of living with the modern conveniences before being totally accepted into their faith. It was very interesting seeing how many of those teens really go crazy during this time. I also found it interesting how some do choose to stay with their families afterwards and how their courting rituals work where they allow young people of the opposite sex spend the night in the same room and bed with each other to get to know each other better. I guess they assume they will get married.

The one thing I would not agree with is only permitting education that is only necessary. I think the Church is very much into education - in fact it was one of the only places where you could get an excellent education for a long time. I would have felt very stifled if I couldn’t have more than what was given to me. I constantly craved more information since I was a child. It might be fine for some, but I’d feel for those children who had the intellect and ability to go further with their minds.

That said, I still admire their simple ways of living and lack of materialism. That is something the modern world could learn more about.

 

[Ceil-1]

Gee, can you point out the post where I said every Catholic should live in the country, and everyone should live this lifestyle? Because I if that is how you read it, it is not what I meant to convey.

If what you are saying is the correct way to go, that is, be “out there” in the world among “them English”, then, my question remains: how do we live a life “set apart”?

What was meant by 2 Corinthians 6:17, …“go, therefore, out from among them and be ye separate”?.

Anybody? Anyone?

Bueller?

Bueller?

 

[dixieagle]

Gee, can you point out the post where I said every Catholic should live in the country, and everyone should live this lifestyle? Because I if that is how you read it, it is not what I meant to convey.

If what you are saying is the correct way to go, that is, be “out there” in the world among “them English”, then, my question remains: how do we live a life “set apart”?

What was meant by 2 Corinthians 6:17, …“go, therefore, out from among them and be ye separate”?.

Anybody? Anyone?

Bueller?

Bueller?

With regard to 2 Corinthians, you must read it in the context of instructions to the early Christian Church. Here is a link to the passage and explanatory footnotes: usccb.org/nab/bible/2corinthians/2corinthians6.htm

Bottom line seems to be that Christianity is not compatible with paganism (our actions must “separate” us from them); there then follows a statement on God’s covenant with those who follow Him.

 

[Sabda]

And Sabda, I live near OKC. Where are you?

We live just west of Sand Springs, in the Diocese of Tulsa.

 

[stinkcat_14]

I have always been fascinated by the Amish and there always seems to be a bit of romance in their lifestyle. The one thing I would not like however is someone coming up with the set of rules, as my agnostic friend says about the Amish: Why do they think God says electricity is bad, but propane is good?

I am not against shunning technology at times, I personally live without cable tv and watch very little tv over the antenna. But I do love listening to catholic podcasts on my ipod. But I would feel uncomfortable having someone tell me one is right and the other is wrong.

 

[Ceil-1]

The rules vary from community to community. They vote on them more or less democratically. Once they make a choice, it is a lot like becoming a nun or a monk. The person chooses to submit themselves to the “rule” for the love of God.

It is not that electricity is bad but propane is okay. It is just something they have decided to do as a whole. There are communities which may, to a limited degree, use things like phones (in the barn), and trucks (for business purposes). That seems a little weird.

The Israelites set themselves apart through their rules and lifestyle, which was distinctively different from those around them, as it is today. The monks of the middle ages did a similar thing. At that point, it was separation from secularism, for the most part. The early Christians were distinctive in how they lived as well. It was different from the status quo, not unlike it is in the Middle Eastern countries where they are easily identified for persecution purposes.

This is rarely the case with Catholics in western countries. Now, in Poland, or Italy, say, everyone is a Catholic. It is part of the general culture. Not so in America. 100 years or so ago, a Catholic would be easily identified by where he lived, what type of work he did (menial labor), and the outward signs of his religion. Also by his habits, how he spoke, etc. It was uncomfortable to live the Faith, at times.

Now, I defy you to identify a Catholic from anyone else, either by word, deed, or habit. Maybe an occasional holy person here and there. Not the majority, that’s for sure.

I ask you, is this a good thing? And if this is pleasing to God, why had this not been the general pattern? Why is it just in the past 50 spiritually suicidal years that this philosophy has developed?

 

[Sarabande]

Gee, can you point out the post where I said every Catholic should live in the country, and everyone should live this lifestyle? Because I if that is how you read it, it is not what I meant to convey.

Are you referring to my post above this one because all I was talking about is what I was intrigued by and what I didn’t really like about adopting the Amish lifestyle in the area where I grew up?

 

[Sarabande]

Now, I defy you to identify a Catholic from anyone else, either by word, deed, or habit. Maybe an occasional holy person here and there. Not the majority, that’s for sure.

I ask you, is this a good thing? And if this is pleasing to God, why had this not been the general pattern? Why is it just in the past 50 spiritually suicidal years that this philosophy has developed?

I see what you mean by this, because it’s sometimes hard today to identify a priest or sister anymore. At the same time, where I live and also where I grew up, many of the people in those areas are Catholic and there are little indicators as to their religion. I can’t quite explain it, but for me, it tends to be how they talk about their families or lives. They are very subtle indicators within the Catholic culture (if you can call it that), but one can tell - even in those people who had converted from Catholicism to another faith. Like I said, I can’t really explain it, but I have usually been correct in my guess about a person being Catholic when I’ve met them at least in this area.

When my Dad was growing up, the major indicator that his family and the two other Catholic families on their street were “Papists” was by the size of their families, attending Catholic school and the women wearing veils on Sunday morning. I don’t know if there really was many other indicators back in the 50s and 60s. When I grew up in the 80s and 90s, many of the Catholic kids in our parish attended Catholic gradeschool and we usually knew in our neighborhood which kids were Protestant and which ones were Catholic just by that. But that was the only outward indicator at that point, although, usually in our area if you were Italian, Filipino or Irish, you were most-likely Catholic.

Also consider the history of Catholics in America. They were continually pushed down and forced to “hide” their Catholicism. In Philadelphia, for instance, where there is a large Catholic population, it used to be a law that no Catholic churches were allowed to have their entrances on a major street. All entrances had to be built in the alley ways. So, if you look at a lot of the older churches in that city, some have strange places where you have to enter the church or they had them rebuilt when the law was removed. The Cathedral there, which was built between 1846-1864, was built during the Know-Nothing era of major anti-Catholicism and riots. That cathedral does not have any low windows, mainly because of their fear of non-Catholics throwing stones, torches, and whatever else into them. Any low windows were built in the 1950s during the expansion of the cathedral.

Maryland, as most know, was originally a Catholic colony, granted to Lord Baltimore by England to pay as a recompense for taking away his father’s lands among other things in England after the family converted to Catholicism. When this colony was created, it caused such a stir amongst the Protestants in the colonies. They were frightened about the Papacy coming there. So within less than a 100 years, they worked their way into the government and eventually was able to actually outlaw Catholicism in the once Catholic colony.

As late as the 1950s/60s in PA, a former pastor of mine talked about how his family was one of the only Catholic families in their area having moved out into the country. He remembers waking up to find a cross burning in their yard and trying to force his family to move because they were Catholic. And yet Pennsylvania did start out to be a colony which was very tolerant of all religions because of the Quaker origins, thus why you actually did see many Catholics and small community of Jews living in the Philadelphia area during the Revolutionary War.

Of course there was “freedom” of religion here, but for some groups it did come with a price and I think many through the centuries here in America just tried to survive and perhaps didn’t want to stand out because of what they had to endure. I’m not saying if that was right or wrong, but I think that can help explain a little why it may not be as “easy” to spy a Catholic from another religion. It’s an old hangover from our past, and I honestly don’t think this is something from just the past 50 years. Just looking at the history of our country one can see it had been happening for at least 250-300 years. What is occurring over the past 50 years (ie. lack of intense faith) is something that is effecting people of almost all faiths usually those of mainstream religions - Catholicism included.

I think that is why there is a renewed interest and resurgence of people wanting to bring back an importance to Tradition in our faith especially during Mass. It was put aside for at least 40 years and I think it has caused some damage. Whether or not a tradition in Catholic culture could also be brought back as easily is another story as that was something I believe was slowly taken away for centuries in America and not just in 40 years. Adopting something similar to the Amish lifestyle probably wouldn’t be so true to what Catholics were like through the centuries because I don’t think lay Catholics have really tried to separate themselves from the rest of world in general (unless of course you joined a religious or monastic community or something similar). They’ve always worked within the world. In America, Catholics did separate themselves in regards to their national origins, though. But that is probably an entirely different dynamic.

 

[Shin]

Jesus and Mary lived a lifestyle quite different than the one we live today. . . Mary. . . is above all the angels, and every human being in Heaven. . .

Of course the world feels threatened by those who wish to go back to the land, and be self sufficient. . . because then people reveal. . . that all they need is God and family and the land. . .

Not any of the pomps, vanities, and frills of the world. . .

I greatly love the descriptions of the Plain Catholics. . . The Rural Life Prayer Book you can find on Saints’ Books and EWTN’s website.

I consider at times taking up a life like that.

It is a very sensible life in these times. . . It is closer to the monastic life than most lives.

But the religious life is the best for one’s soul.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Now, I defy you to identify a Catholic from anyone else, either by word, deed, or habit. Maybe an occasional holy person here and there. Not the majority, that’s for sure.

I ask you, is this a good thing? And if this is pleasing to God, why had this not been the general pattern? Why is it just in the past 50 spiritually suicidal years that this philosophy has developed?

Does it *REALLY *matter?
Would you treat people differently if you KNEW they were Catholic (or not) by sight? Would you act differently yourself if others could always identify you as a Catholic?
Really, what difference would it make in how you live your life if you could recognize a Catholic walking down the street? Is our “outward appearance” really ALWAYS a reflection of our heart?

Actually, I’ve found that non-Catholics listen with slightly more open ears when I talk about my faith if I share basic cultural ideals with them. Who wants to learn more about the Catholic faith if it means they have to put aside every basic cultural thing they know, when in reality, it REALLY doesn’t matter when it comes to accepting the Catholic faith??? Heck, that could turn someone AWAY from the faith!..

God TOLD us what was pleasing to him in Scriptures - to love our neighbor, clothe the naked, feed the hungry, take care of the poor - NONE of that requires a certain “culture” or “appearance”…

I think that past cultures found distinction just because they were persecuted elsewhere. They banded together out of necessity, not necessarily desire. Countries formed their boarders based on these distinctions for protection, not isolation.

My point is… as our world turns more and more towards non-religious secularism, our purpose is to BE Christ in the world and to BRING Christ to others. People, in general, feel comfortable in their surrounding culture - and shunning that culture would only turn people away. It’s not the culture that’s wrong - it’s that Christ is absent. Bringing Christ TO those cultures is where many of us just may find our purpose!

 

[sanctamaria17]

People guess that I’m Catholic before I even tell them…when I’m not even wearing religious medals or w/e for them to see…I don’t know what it is…but I do believe you can guess…It’s like Catholic-radar or something…

In my experience, it’s amazing to see someone who may look “normal” in outward appearance but also is kind, chaste, joyful, patient, generous, bears suffering with courage, and is not ashamed of their faith to the point where people want to know what that person has that they don’t…Maybe a teen/twenty-something wearing blue jeans and concert T-shirts but who is waiting to have sex till marriage and actually does go to Mass…a mom who may not wear a veil or cover her hair for church but who stands up to people who make rude comments about her family planning/sexual practices and defends her children and others…I’m not saying people have to go the other way either but people need to see that those who follow Christ are just like them in other ways, but that they have something that they can have too…

Also, God does not judge by appearance but by the heart. He picked David to be His next appointed king, though David did not fit the “king job description” his culture had. And Jesus was wary about those who did everything to look holy but none to act holy. He NEVER told the Apostles to look or dress a certain way…Living simply does not mean looking alike or having a marker…in fact, it can give you an extra reason to judge someone…

Personally, if you really want a marker…I think that’s what our crucifixes, Miraculous medals, and saint medals are for Not that hard to tell if you’ve got 'em on