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pathia
Guest
Hoops? It took me 15minutes to get one.
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Ella
Guest
St. Francis, if you go to the link, the website at pbs.org has summaries of each section of the documentary, interviews with several people (in print) and a discussion forum.
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aspawloski4th
Guest
So the failure we have now is fine with you?
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4elise
Guest
Using your personal experience to say why the post office is ‘bad’ is the same thing that people complain about in this debate (not this thread) “People should not use their personal experience to complain about an overall good health care system” — I could say I’ve had only great experiences with the post office - and find it a wonderful system with good value - One may have a different experience, Just as others dismiss the bad experience people have with or without health care - if it doesn’t impact them, and they like their insurance - then who cares, right?
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aspawloski4th
Guest
But to be fair, it depends on how many experiences and how many other you know with expereieinces. And when you see an obvious patter from that, its fair to judge. Me and my wife know a lot of people from a wide variety of walks of life, and we happen to be more observant than the Average AMerican it seems.
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gakroeger
Guest
There is none so blind as those who WILL NOT see…
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4elise
Guest
‘My’-opia!
“I got mine - so that is all that matters”. - somehow does not seem consistent with Christian theology.
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4elise
Guest
No… I agree with you — and was trying to make a point -
It IS the personal experiences of millions of individuals that matter - and the more one hears, the more one (who has their ears and eyes open) knows that this is NOT working for everyone. But honestly - for those for whom it is working - they just do not care. They seem to be saying: “I got mine so (blank) you!” (sorry for the blank
) I don’t usually use even excepted expletives)
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St_Francis
Guest
Yes, but the problem is that when we operate on feelings of sympathy or compassion generated by hearing stories of individuals affected badly, then we ignore the potential unintended consequences of the action we take too hastily.No… I agree with you — and was trying to make a point -
It IS the personal experiences of millions of individuals that matter - and the more one hears, the more one (who has their ears and eyes open) knows that this is NOT working for everyone. But honestly - for those for whom it is working - they just do not care. They seem to be saying: “I got mine so (blank) you!” (sorry for the blank
This is why it is better to consider the issue in context and taking everyone into account rather than a few chosen people.
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gakroeger
Guest
This thread is going off topic
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St_Francis
Guest
How so? We are considering how well the government runs other operations, and what information we should consider when considering the question raised.
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4elise
Guest
A few? Seriously?
That is just because the ‘few’ don’t have the same access to cable news to have their voice heard!
**46.3 million are uninsured **news.aol.com/article/number-of-americans-without-insurance/664816
nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml
If we are pro life - we are pro health care / health coverage reform -
Per the USCCB
**
This legislation is about life and death, who can take their children to the doctor and who cannot, who can afford decent health care coverage and who are left to fend for themselves. Health care reform especially needs to protect those at the beginning of life and at its end, the most vulnerable and the voiceless.**
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gakroeger
Guest
I would like to see a breakdown of the 46.3 million uninsured. Most information I have seen it closer to 20 million. And of these how many chose to spend their money on new cars and expensive luxuries instead of health insurance? And, uninsured does not mean they do not have access to medical care.
See this thread
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aspawloski4th
Guest
And that doesn’t account for the underiinsured. Time for those scoundrels to have punitie measure taken against them.
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aspawloski4th
Guest
I was just trying to clarify is all. No big deal.No… I agree with you — and was trying to make a point -
It IS the personal experiences of millions of individuals that matter - and the more one hears, the more one (who has their ears and eyes open) knows that this is NOT working for everyone. But honestly - for those for whom it is working - they just do not care. They seem to be saying: “I got mine so (blank) you!” (sorry for the blank
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fultonfish
Guest
All of you already know that the actual number of people without medical insurance is NOT 46 million. That is a made-up number.
That number includes illegals, people eligible for existing programs but who have chosen not to sign up, people who have deliberately opted out, and people who make more than $75K but who choose to self-insure.
The actual number of people who are involuntarily without medical insurance is 12 million out of a population of 330 million. There is no reason to destroy a system that is satisfactory for 96% of the population when all we need to do is to design something for those 12 million.
In addition, all of you know that ANYONE can go to an emergency room for medical care. So the issue is not poor medical care.
The issue you all have chosen to make is that the present system is not 100% perfect.
What is being overlooked is that the government has chosen to prevent the free market system from fixing what needs to be fixed.
The Congress has basically outlawed free market competition, interstate competition, and innovations such as HSA/MSA policies. In addition, Congress has modified the tax code to prevent people from deducting their full medical expenses and from deducting the medical expenses of others.
We can set up charitable funds that have the benefit tax deductions and tax credits so that people can make donations to them and the funds will pay for the medical insurance needed by that 4% who are unable to get medical insurance.
Again, the problem lies with the Congress that has deliberately refused to allow these privately funded initiatives.
This is public record. And has been discussed freely and exhaustively here at CAF.
There is no reason why we cannot make some very minor changes to the tax code to allow tax credits and tax deductions for ALL medical costs.
With one stroke, Congress can fix the system without setting up the world’s largest bureaucracy, without private insurance being crowded out and without the sickest people and oldest people being shut out by the quota system being imposed (which will be imposed by the proposed government system).
These issues have been discussed at great length at CAF, and all of you know that.
Tell the truth.
That number includes illegals, people eligible for existing programs but who have chosen not to sign up, people who have deliberately opted out, and people who make more than $75K but who choose to self-insure.
The actual number of people who are involuntarily without medical insurance is 12 million out of a population of 330 million. There is no reason to destroy a system that is satisfactory for 96% of the population when all we need to do is to design something for those 12 million.
In addition, all of you know that ANYONE can go to an emergency room for medical care. So the issue is not poor medical care.
The issue you all have chosen to make is that the present system is not 100% perfect.
What is being overlooked is that the government has chosen to prevent the free market system from fixing what needs to be fixed.
The Congress has basically outlawed free market competition, interstate competition, and innovations such as HSA/MSA policies. In addition, Congress has modified the tax code to prevent people from deducting their full medical expenses and from deducting the medical expenses of others.
We can set up charitable funds that have the benefit tax deductions and tax credits so that people can make donations to them and the funds will pay for the medical insurance needed by that 4% who are unable to get medical insurance.
Again, the problem lies with the Congress that has deliberately refused to allow these privately funded initiatives.
This is public record. And has been discussed freely and exhaustively here at CAF.
There is no reason why we cannot make some very minor changes to the tax code to allow tax credits and tax deductions for ALL medical costs.
With one stroke, Congress can fix the system without setting up the world’s largest bureaucracy, without private insurance being crowded out and without the sickest people and oldest people being shut out by the quota system being imposed (which will be imposed by the proposed government system).
These issues have been discussed at great length at CAF, and all of you know that.
Tell the truth.
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pathia
Guest
I don’t see how small changes in the tax code are suddenly going to make the insurance companies, of which there are maybe 4 in the entire country that will even offer me a policy, suddenly drop their prices by 50%
And again with the emergency room. The emergency room is for EMERGENCY care. They cannot take care of any sort of chronic condition. There is nothing they can ever do for me there, it’s why I very rarely bother with it, no one there knows a darned thing about my condition. They treat symptoms on the spot, they are not for long term care. If I go in for chronic pain, they will give me pain pills, they will not do random tests to find out what’s causing the pain.
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St_Francis
Guest
ETA: This took me a long time to write, and so I didn’t see FultonFish’s post above before I submitted it.
**Non-Citizens: **This figure of 9.3 million (20.3 percent of the uninsured) includes both legal aliens-many of whom are not eligible for federally-subsidized coverage for five years after their arrival-and undocumented immigrants.
**Medicaid Undercount: **6.4 million (14 percent of the 45.7 million uninsured in 2007) were enrolled in Medicaid or SCHIP, but did not report such coverage to the Census Bureau.
Eligible for But Not Enrolled in Government Coverage: An additional* 4.3 million (9.4 percent)* were eligible for public programs like Medicaid and SCHIP but not enrolled in them. As a 2003 CBO report noted, “Some policy-makers…believe that such people should be regarded as insured, because they can apply for Medicaid when they require care and receive retroactive coverage for their expenses.”
Over Three Times Poverty: Many of these 10.1 million individuals (22.1 percent of the uninsured) may be able to afford coverage, as their incomes are above 300 percent of the federal poverty level ($66,150 for a family of four in 2009), but choose not to purchase such coverage.
"Young Invincibles:" An additional *5 million uninsured (10.9 percent *of the total) are aged between 18 and 34; while many likely could purchase coverage at affordable rates, some may choose not to do so-because they feel they do not need it, and/or do not perceive it to be of value to them.
I don’t know enough about the first category listed here to comment, but they are 20% of the uninsured.
We have an additional 25% who are either on or eligible for Medicaid.
Ten percent are the young, who are presumed pto choose not to be covered because they feel invincible and want to buy I-Pods instead. And the last 22% are those who are not eligible for government aid, but who are not covered elsewhere.
So that’s 15 million people, or one-third of the original estimate of Americans without insurance who are actually without health coverage.
First of all, some of them do not have coverage because they are currently unemployed. In this difficult economic time, they may have chosen to save their money rather than spend it on COBRA (which can be terrifically expensive) so that they can feed their family longer if it takes a while to find a job.
Another set is self-employed and have decided not to pay for coverage for various reasons: uneven compensation, high rates due to pre-existing conditions, inability to obtain due to pre-existing conditions, and, despite being 300% over the poverty level, maybe not being able to afford it due to any number of things such as student loans to pay back, child support payments, etc.
And there are probably those who choose not to buy because insurance is a gamble–a gamble that you will get sick. If they perceive their chances of getting sick as being very low, then they may decide to pass on the offer, the same way I don’t play the lottery.
For those with pre-existing conditions, the current programs could be expanded to cover them as well, or the EIC–like system above could help them out.
There is really no need to turn our whole system inside out just because 5% of the people here have no insurance and are ineligible for government assistance.
Here’s a breakdown of those 46M )I rearranged them)
**Non-Citizens: **This figure of 9.3 million (20.3 percent of the uninsured) includes both legal aliens-many of whom are not eligible for federally-subsidized coverage for five years after their arrival-and undocumented immigrants.
**Medicaid Undercount: **6.4 million (14 percent of the 45.7 million uninsured in 2007) were enrolled in Medicaid or SCHIP, but did not report such coverage to the Census Bureau.
Eligible for But Not Enrolled in Government Coverage: An additional* 4.3 million (9.4 percent)* were eligible for public programs like Medicaid and SCHIP but not enrolled in them. As a 2003 CBO report noted, “Some policy-makers…believe that such people should be regarded as insured, because they can apply for Medicaid when they require care and receive retroactive coverage for their expenses.”
Over Three Times Poverty: Many of these 10.1 million individuals (22.1 percent of the uninsured) may be able to afford coverage, as their incomes are above 300 percent of the federal poverty level ($66,150 for a family of four in 2009), but choose not to purchase such coverage.
"Young Invincibles:" An additional *5 million uninsured (10.9 percent *of the total) are aged between 18 and 34; while many likely could purchase coverage at affordable rates, some may choose not to do so-because they feel they do not need it, and/or do not perceive it to be of value to them.
I don’t know enough about the first category listed here to comment, but they are 20% of the uninsured.
We have an additional 25% who are either on or eligible for Medicaid.
Ten percent are the young, who are presumed pto choose not to be covered because they feel invincible and want to buy I-Pods instead. And the last 22% are those who are not eligible for government aid, but who are not covered elsewhere.
So that’s 15 million people, or one-third of the original estimate of Americans without insurance who are actually without health coverage.
First of all, some of them do not have coverage because they are currently unemployed. In this difficult economic time, they may have chosen to save their money rather than spend it on COBRA (which can be terrifically expensive) so that they can feed their family longer if it takes a while to find a job.
Another set is self-employed and have decided not to pay for coverage for various reasons: uneven compensation, high rates due to pre-existing conditions, inability to obtain due to pre-existing conditions, and, despite being 300% over the poverty level, maybe not being able to afford it due to any number of things such as student loans to pay back, child support payments, etc.
And there are probably those who choose not to buy because insurance is a gamble–a gamble that you will get sick. If they perceive their chances of getting sick as being very low, then they may decide to pass on the offer, the same way I don’t play the lottery.
There are simple things which could be done to aid those who are not currently covered or eligible for the aid given to those in poverty. One is to break the bond between employment and insurance–that is just crazy. People should be able to have medical accounts which would be taken off their taxes. Right now, the tax system favors the employer-provided model because those payments are considered expenses and the money used for them is not taxed. However, those who pay their own premiums are paying from income which has already been taxed. Evening out this inequity by allowing premium payments to not be counted as taxable income would help those in this situation, as would a system similar to the EIC whereby some would get an actual credit for what they have paid out.
For those with pre-existing conditions, the current programs could be expanded to cover them as well, or the EIC–like system above could help them out.
There is really no need to turn our whole system inside out just because 5% of the people here have no insurance and are ineligible for government assistance.
Yes. If the fear is a beaucracy then they should already know that healthcare is already in the hands of a beaucracy its controlled by private companies and organizations. Unlike the government their policies are controlled by their own self interests in this case money or company policy. If a patient is denied a medical service there are few courses of redress and often the patient pays with their very lives. Now if government takes over healthcare the result will be the same, except the government can be controlled by public opinion, where as the current method has companies answering to no one save the almighty dollar. The government controlled option isn’t the best option, but its better than whats currently in place. Just my 2 cents.
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fultonfish
Guest
The problem with insurance is the lack of competition and it is the Federal government along with the state governments that prohibit competition.
If you want better service, make sure there is free and open competition.
Consider how many different alternatives you have in cell phone service and all the different devices, some with GPS and video capability. You may not be aware of it but at one time AT&T had a government enforced monopoly on telephone service. It was good service, but it was expensive and not very innovative. AT&T employed somewhere around ONE MILLION people.
Someone challenged AT&T in court, if I recall correctly, over the issue of a plug-in answering machine. AT&T lost. Free and open competition became the rule and revolutionized the world.
There is no reason why we cannot have free and open competition in healthcare.
We may not all be doctors, but then we are not all electronics whizbangs and technicians, but we manage to invent and choose among the thousands of offerings in the communications market place.
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