Should hand holding at the Our Father be a cause for division among the Faithful?

[stjosephtomasi]

neither side is wrong

Lux

Neither side is wrong???

there are hundreds of posts in dozens of threads with members of each side saying that the other is wrong.

as a result, there is division and confusion.

some authoritative guidance is required from the shepherds.

 

[b_justb]

Neither side is wrong???

there are hundreds of posts in dozens of threads with members of each side saying that the other is wrong.

as a result, there is division and confusion.

some authoritative guidance is required from the shepherds.

That guidance has already been given. Every time the hand holding thread / issues come up (which is every 15 to 22 seconds on here) it is posted. You can if you want and don’t have to if you don’t want. Neither side is to judge the other. The fact that people get all bent up about it is not a problem with guidance from the Sheppard. It’s a problem with the sheep behaving badly.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

That guidance has already been given. Every time the hand holding thread / issues come up (which is every 15 to 22 seconds on here) it is posted. You can if you want and don’t have to if you don’t want. Neither side is to judge the other. The fact that people get all bent up about it is not a problem with guidance from the Sheppard. It’s a problem with the sheep behaving badly.

While in practice it’s easy to say “you can’t force anyone” in reality, refusing an outstretched hand is difficult to do without creating offense. Also if the custom at mass is to hold hands, many people in the pews will think this is actually the rule and when one person declines to hold their hand, they’ll get all confused and think they’re breaking some rule and try to figure out what’s wrong. But you aren’t supposed to be talking about it because this is at mass. So while the theory is good, in practice its difficult to do.

To me it feels weird, especially to hold another man’s hand. Anywhere else in our culture you’d just assume they were gay.

 

[irisheyes66]

To me it feels weird, especially to hold another man’s hand. Anywhere else in our culture you’d just assume they were gay.

Please tell me you’re only joking.

 

[bankerdavid]

Hand holding is forced. I loathe it with a pure and white hot loathing. No, I’m not crabby and I’m normally very friendly, but there’s something about this that sets me off. I will never go to a church where you have to hold hands.

There is nothing forced in the Mass, except for the fact that you have to attend. You don’t have to stand, sit, or kneel if you don’t want to, you don’t have to sing with the choir, you don’t have to listen to the readings or the homilist, heck, you don’t even have to receive the Eucharist or show up on time, or stay until the end. Thusly, you don’t have to hold hands if you don’t want to. Is it nice for you to participate? Certainly! God wants you to do that. Is it showing one-ness for you to do what everyone else does? Certainly! But no one is forcing you to do anything but attend.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Please tell me you’re only joking.

Not a joke. When’s the last time you held another man’s wife’s hand? Or held a man’s hand at work, or waking down the street?

(I’m assuming you’re male, and North American.)

 

[bankerdavid]

I was surfing the internet and found a Q & A on EWTN’S website…interesting… :yup:

Just talking about it can even create division.

The Bishop in our diocese instructed us that we are not to hold hands during the Lord’s prayer…I choose to remain obedient; however, I always see members of the congegration holding hands. I often wonder if they are uniformed of the instruction given by the Bishop or if they choose to do it anyway.

ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=452644&Pg=Forum8&Pgnu=1&recnu=16

Well, when the US Bishops choose to ignore Rome’s instruction because someone is a public figure, you tell me how their example sets the pace for us, the faithful…Yet the bishops are **supposed to **listen to, and follow, the rules the Vatican sets forth (whether they agree or not). We are **supposed to **follow the bishops, since they are responsible for us in matters of faith and morals…

 

[mercygate]

Just to toss in a freestanding answer to the OP.

Yes. Handholding during the Our Father should be a cause for division among the faithful. But only this far:

You do it in your row, but don’t ask me to join the party. So to that extent, I’ll be “divided” but not an inch further.

And don’t try to grab my hand!

 

[iamrefreshed]

There is nothing forced in the Mass, except for the fact that you have to attend. You don’t have to stand, sit, or kneel if you don’t want to, you don’t have to sing with the choir, you don’t have to listen to the readings or the homilist, heck, you don’t even have to receive the Eucharist or show up on time, or stay until the end. Thusly, you don’t have to hold hands if you don’t want to. Is it nice for you to participate? Certainly! God wants you to do that. Is it showing one-ness for you to do what everyone else does? Certainly! But no one is forcing you to do anything but attend.

No it really is forced. Some people don’t take no for an answer. I’ve given up and have caved in to hand holding. I don’t like it but I like even less someone grabbing my hand like I was their disobedient child (yes, people do that).

 

[bankerdavid]

Not a joke. When’s the last time you held another man’s wife’s hand? Or held a man’s hand at work, or waking down the street?

(I’m assuming you’re male, and North American.)

Egad, you’re not establishing a relationship with the next person, and you’re not at work or walking down the street. Entirely, entirely, entirely different scenarios.

Also, there’s a formal way to hold someone’s hand and an informal, just as there’s a familial hug, and a husband-wife hug.

 

[b_justb]

Not a joke. When’s the last time you held another man’s wife’s hand? Or held a man’s hand at work, or waking down the street?

(I’m assuming you’re male, and North American.)

Never at work or walking down the street. But in prayer, very often. When I and 2 other men meet for our weekly prayers we hold hands around a table that has a small crucifix and an Icon of Mary on it. The last time I held another man’s wife’s hand in prayer was last Thursday night.

At the church I go to morning Mass at, we don’t hold hands during the Our Father. It isn’t customary to do so. At my home parish Church we do.

It really is no big deal one way or the other. It’s about the prayer not about the hands holding or folded while in prayer.

 

[bankerdavid]

No it really is forced. Some people don’t take no for an answer. I’ve given up and have caved in to hand holding. I don’t like it but I like even less someone grabbing my hand like I was their disobedient child (yes, people do that).

While it’s true that this seems forced, it’s entirely up to you to go along. I agree that it’s not right for someone to do this, but if you’re next to me, I will offer my hand, it’s up to you to take it or not. Just like if I offer someone a ride home after Mass, it’s up them to take it. The offer comes once. If the answer is no, I’ve done my part. At any rate, in those cases, a polite word after mass would solve the issue, even to the point of telling them what ettiquette might be.

 

[Corki]

No it really is forced. Some people don’t take no for an answer. I’ve given up and have caved in to hand holding. I don’t like it but I like even less someone grabbing my hand like I was their disobedient child (yes, people do that).

I agree.

I had to move my regular place at daily Mass after being groped by a man who was insisting that I hold his hand. Not polemic language. I had my hands folded, pointing up, chest high. You can figure it out.

My kids have been told at their Catholic school by other students and teachers that they are committing a **mortal **sin by not holding hands at the school Mass.

I don’t have a problem at all if you (not you, iamrefreshed) want to hold hands with each other but why the need to force everyone to go along? In the middle of Mass, it is not the time to insist that you are right and I am wrong. After Mass, I am happy to discuss it with you.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Never at work or walking down the street. But in prayer, very often. When I and 2 other men meet for our weekly prayers we hold hands around a table that has a small crucifix and an Icon of Mary on it. The last time I held another man’s wife’s hand in prayer was last Thursday night.

At the church I go to morning Mass at, we don’t hold hands during the Our Father. It isn’t customary to do so. At my home parish Church we do.

It really is no big deal one way or the other. It’s about the prayer not about the hands holding or folded while in prayer.

Yes same with me, last time I held hand’s with another man’s wife was years ago praying at a catholic mass, and last time I held hands with another man was years ago praying at a catholic mass. That’s the point… you don’t do it anywhere else. The sign of peace, shaking hands, has cultural meaning as a friendly greeting. Other than in the situation we’re debating, holding hands simply isn’t done by adults who aren’t romantically involved, and is quite inappropriate in many cases. So there is no cultural precedent for it. That’s my point.

 

[b_justb]

Yes same with me, last time I held hand’s with another man’s wife was years ago praying at a catholic mass, and last time I held hands with another man was years ago praying at a catholic mass. That’s the point… you don’t do it anywhere else. The sign of peace, shaking hands, has cultural meaning as a friendly greeting. Other than in the situation we’re debating, holding hands simply isn’t done by adults who aren’t romantically involved, and is quite inappropriate in many cases. So there is no cultural precedent for it. That’s my point.

I don’t think you’re hearing me. I’ve held peoples hands in prayer not necessarily just at Mass in prayer, just in prayer in general. At home, in others peoples homes, in public at a restaurant before a meal. If you don’t want to hold anyone’s hand during the Our Father at Mass you don’t have to.

But I gotta tell ya that I think that you having some sort of homophobic reaction to it is pretty odd.

 

[Apryl]

While in practice it’s easy to say “you can’t force anyone” in reality, refusing an outstretched hand is difficult to do without creating offense. Also if the custom at mass is to hold hands, many people in the pews will think this is actually the rule and when one person declines to hold their hand, they’ll get all confused and think they’re breaking some rule and try to figure out what’s wrong. But you aren’t supposed to be talking about it because this is at mass. So while the theory is good, in practice its difficult to do.

This is SO true! Esp when you get with some older folx… esp those that have difficulty hearing. ‘What? What’s the matter. Gimme your hand’

Distracting!

And if you don’t do it, they will stop what they are doing to step closer to you.

Personally, I do not WANT to hold hands, but if every one around me is doing it, I do it, just to be a part of the community. It used to really irk me trying to think of ways to avoid the hand holding. Now, I just do it, and after mass think, ‘we gotta stop doing that’. That takes seconds.

 

[Apryl]

My kids have been told at their Catholic school by other students and teachers that they are committing a mortal sin by not holding hands at the school Mass.

I don’t have a problem at all if you (not you, iamrefreshed) want to hold hands with each other but why the need to force everyone to go along? In the middle of Mass, it is not the time to insist that you are right and I am wrong. After Mass, I am happy to discuss it with you.

That’s just it: some people have gotten the impression, either by someone (probably of authority) telling them to hold hands, or just seeing others holding hands, that the hand holding was a necessary part of the mass. When you don’t go along, it’s something wrong with YOU.

Yet, I’ve seen some of these same people continuing around the church during the “Lamb of God” and chattering until the celebrant begins the prayers.

I’ve seen some of these same people not bowing during the Nicene Creed, despite it being written into the text that one is SUPPOSED to bow (and the instructions are for a PROFOUND bow).

People do what they want to do, and some believe what they are doing is right, and if you do otherwise, you are wrong.

Division, discention, and confusion!

 

[Apryl]

I don’t think you’re hearing me. I’ve held peoples hands in prayer not necessarily just at Mass in prayer, just in prayer in general. At home, in others peoples homes, in public at a restaurant before a meal. If you don’t want to hold anyone’s hand during the Our Father at Mass you don’t have to.

But I gotta tell ya that I think that you having some sort of homophobic reaction to it is pretty odd.

Pssst… Dude… you’re missing the point (and yes, I’m dipping… but hey, this is the internet and a discussion board):

He’s saying that other than in a setting of PRAYER, be it mass, or other PRAYER, no one holds hands.

And for MOST of us (me included) holding hands in other prayers isn’t the norm, still, it’s not what’s being discussed.

You try to hold some man’s hand when you are walking down the street and see what happens. It doesn’t matter if you are male or female. If you are not romantically linked, it’s odd.

Not wrong, but ODD

I still don’t see why we need to hold hands, though. It’s a nice familiar gesture, but not necessary, is it?

 

[b_justb]

Pssst… Dude… you’re missing the point (and yes, I’m dipping… but hey, this is the internet and a discussion board):

He’s saying that other than in a setting of PRAYER, be it mass, or other PRAYER, no one holds hands.

And for MOST of us (me included) holding hands in other prayers isn’t the norm, still, it’s not what’s being discussed.

You try to hold some man’s hand when you are walking down the street and see what happens. It doesn’t matter if you are male or female. If you are not romantically linked, it’s odd.

Not wrong, but ODD

I still don’t see why we need to hold hands, though. It’s a nice familiar gesture, but not necessary, is it?

I think the point is that some people don’t want to or don’t like to hold hands while praying the Our Father at Mass. Some like it, some don’t care (I’m a don’t care guy).

I can see the personal preference. Everyone has a personal preference, and that’s OK either way.

What I don’t understand is seeing it as odd. When we are praying in any setting and we are with fellow Christians we are with family. Having a mind set that says, “anyone in my family touching my hands is odd,” is what is odd. We are a family, a community, the Bride of Christ. But we don’t touch hands because it creeps us out. Oh we’ll eat the flesh of Christ and drink His blood, but hold hands while praying - ewwwwwwwww; I could get cooties, or someone might think I’m a fag. Yeah OK ummm which sentiment is it that is odd again?

 

[DaughterSorrow]

She short answer is “no,” it should not be a cause of division.

If you don’t like hand holding, then simply bow your head, close your eyes, and clasp your hands together. This is a prayerful quiet posture that speaks volumes. I have done this at daily mass when I am sick and don’t want to infect anyone and no one has pestered me to hold their hand when I do this.

Neither action particularly bothers me.

In Peace,
DS