Should hand holding at the Our Father be a cause for division among the Faithful?

[historybrat]

I don’t think hand holding at the Our father should be a cause for division among us, but it is. If people would understand that nowhere is it clearly states that we should hold hands or not hold hands, and therefore let each individual do what was comfortable we could prevent division. I am lucky to be under Archbishop Charles Chaput, who’s fairly orthodox, and he’s said that it is up to each parish/priest.

While some posters have said that no one could force you to hold hands I completely disagree. When I first started going to mass it was overseas in Bahrain. No one held hands and when we did the sign of peace we simply did respectful bows to each other. When I moved back into the states I was in for a bit of a shock (I hadn’t even been baptized yet so I didn’t know much about the Church). The first mass I went to here in Colorado an older man grabbed my hand and held it so tight that I could not get him to release my hand and it felt like my bones were touching. In my home parish, people like to hold hands and will hold hands across the divide in the pews, or even reach either forwards or backwards and connect different rows. I’ve had men and women from behind me reach over me to grab my hand. One guy didn’t want to move directly behind me so he reached across my body to tug me my the hand so that I would move and make it easier for him to hold my hand.

I’ve had people tug at my elbows to get me to unclasp my hands, make rude comments to me because I have choosen not to hold their hands, in fact I had one mom tell her child I hate all children and would die a lonely sad women because I wouldn’t hold the child’s hand. I prefer not holding hands, and respectfully let others know that. However, I’ve meet very few other people who respectfully give me the choice to hold their hand or not hold their hand. I think this is were it becomes an issue among the faithful. It there is no right or wrong posture then I should be able to choose without someone else trying to force me into an action.

Historybrat

 

[katy]

Exactly, Historybrat. Well put.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

At masses where we have to hold hands during the hour father, I spend most of the eucharistic prayer thinking about how i’m going to have to hold hands, and wondering whether i have to walk over to this person or that person to ‘extend the chain’. Actually it’s the main thing on my mind at those masses.

(luckily I found a parish where people don’t hold hands.)

 

[WanderAimlessly]

If this were announced at my “registered” parish, I would not comply. It is already too touchy-feely for me anyways (Turning around to greet people before the beginning of Mass and then the Sign of Peace).

I have been going to a parish where none of this is done. In fact, the priest says “The peace of the Lord be with you” (with the appropriate response) and they go direct to the Agnus Dei (in Latin). It has been affecting me when I am at my regular parish since I am now reluctant to do either now (and have not been).

 

[RunningLawyer]

My wife and I both refuse to hold hands. We have heard it explained on EWTN that this holding of hands is not to be part of the Mass.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

At masses where we have to hold hands during the hour father, I spend most of the eucharistic prayer thinking about how i’m going to have to hold hands, and wondering whether i have to walk over to this person or that person to ‘extend the chain’. Actually it’s the main thing on my mind at those masses.

(luckily I found a parish where people don’t hold hands.)

I find it distracting too. And fear for the unity of the church if bishops can’t agree on what’s proper conduct.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

My parish ‘forces’ hand holding. When I say forces I mean it is now such a part of mass that no one will let you clasp your hands and pray.

I was actually admonished by my priest yesterday as I was serving as EMHC and did not stretch 30 odd feet to the nearest parishoner to clasp hands.

I guess next time I must dis-locate the shoulder of the person on my left so we call all have that sense of ‘community’!

What is going to be next denying communion if you don’t. :bigyikes: I would love to see a priest try that with me. I would Canon Lawyer up

 

[Apryl]

The Great Amen is said immediately before The Lord’s Prayer is recited…
Oh, I’m sorry if ever that made you feel hurt. Maybe the sequence of the acts in the Holy Mass in your place is simply not the same as in my place.

No… you are correct.

actually, we both are, but you are more specific

The Great Amen is before the Lordd’s Prayer, and then we have the Sign of Peace.

I accept your apology, but I think we may be having problems in understanding one another.

What was the point you were making?

 

[bankerdavid]

If we can’t be obedient in little things, how can we be expected to obey in the things that matter most…Doctrines of the faith etc… :ehh:

Jesus said that we are to be obedient to those in authority…(excluding matters of corruption). (1Thes 5:12 ff).

Yes, we are. Bishops are part of the faithful, aren’t they? I know, we’re supposed to, whether or not our leaders do, but they set the example…

 

[Mary_ann_R]

Yes, we are. Bishops are part of the faithful, aren’t they? I know, we’re supposed to, whether or not our leaders do, but they set the example…

Yes, they are part of the faithful, and without a doubt, they set the example. They are also human before they are anything else. I get very defensive of our Priests. Pray for them BD! They need our prayers desperately. I love our priests and feel that they are under attack now more than ever! The enemy hates them because of who they represent here on Earth! Satan thrives on causing division!

God Bless You!

 

[bankerdavid]

Yes, they are part of the faithful, and without a doubt, they set the example. They are also human before they are anything else. I get very defensive of our Priests. Pray for them BD! They need our prayers desperately. I love our priests and feel that they are under attack now more than ever! The enemy hates them because of who they represent here on Earth! Satan thrives on causing division!

God Bless You!

Amen to that! I pray for them every day, hopefully more than I chastise them. There’s a saying that when you point at someone, there’s 4 fingers pointing back at you.

Bless you, too.

 

[agangbern]

No… you are correct.

actually, we both are, but you are more specific

The Great Amen is before the Lordd’s Prayer, and then we have the Sign of Peace.

I accept your apology, but I think we may be having problems in understanding one another.

What was the point you were making?

You said that after closing eyes, clasping hands and bowing heads, someone grab hands for the recitation of the Our Father. The sequence you presented made me wonder if indeed you are familiar with the Holy Mass that we are talking about. I am sorry for wondering. But it simply appeared to me to be not consistent with the actual sequence. The bowing of heads (sign of peace) is done after the Our Father.

 

[Apryl]

The bowing of heads (sign of peace) is done after the Our Father.

How do you show the Sign of Peace? Ours does not include a bowing of heads.

The head bow I was speaking of was to begin my praying the Lord’s Prayer.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Well, let’s first mention that it is not in the Rubics of the Mass. When we do hold hands, we are doing something that is not a part of the Mass.

While this is technically correct it is misleading. The GIRM is silent with regard to gestures. It makes no comment on what one should do during the Our Father except be standing. The GIRM deals with posture–sit stand kneel. The Rubrics do not tell me to bow my head when I pray at Mass or to close my eyes–does this mean those actions are forbidden–after all they are not in the Rubrics? Am I to be reprimanded for doing so?

Peace of Christ
Mark in Oregon

 

[agangbern]

How do you show the Sign of Peace? Ours does not include a bowing of heads.

The head bow I was speaking of was to begin my praying the Lord’s Prayer.

Oh, there is simply a substantial difference! Now I know…

 

[adrift]

While this is technically correct it is misleading. The GIRM is silent with regard to gestures. It makes no comment on what one should do during the Our Father except be standing. The GIRM deals with posture–sit stand kneel. The Rubrics do not tell me to bow my head when I pray at Mass or to close my eyes–does this mean those actions are forbidden–after all they are not in the Rubrics? Am I to be reprimanded for doing so?

Peace of Christ
Mark in Oregon

:banghead: When the entire congregation holds hands it becomes a community action. It is expected that you hold hands by some. The GIRM directs the congregation as a whole. As you said, the only direction is to stand. It does not say now join hands.

 

[MarkInOregon]

:banghead: When the entire congregation holds hands it becomes a community action. It is expected that you hold hands by some. The GIRM directs the congregation as a whole. As you said, the only direction is to stand. It does not say now join hands.

I don’t understand the head banging symbol. I simply pionted out the GIRM is silent on this point. It doesnt say not to hold hands or to hold hands–it simply doesnt address the issue.
To argue that because it doesnt say to hold hands is like when protestants say–the bible doesnt say to baptize infants so you cant baptize infants.

Do you bow your head or make any other gesture or close your eyes or anything thing when you pray at mass? None of that is provided for either—but I am guessing you think its ok?

By the way the Mass is community worship–the whole Mass is “a community action”.

Peace,
Mark in Oregon

 

[adrift]

I don’t understand the head banging symbol. I simply pionted out the GIRM is silent on this point. It doesnt say not to hold hands or to hold hands–it simply doesnt address the issue.
To argue that because it doesnt say to hold hands is like when protestants say–the bible doesnt say to baptize infants so you cant baptize infants.

Do you bow your head or make any other gesture or close your eyes or anything thing when you pray at mass? None of that is provided for either—but I am guessing you think its ok?

By the way the Mass is community worship–the whole Mass is “a community action”.

Peace,
Mark in Oregon

I used the banging of head because this has been stated many times. The GIRM is a positive direction. It does not tell you what you can’t do but what you can do. It tells the congregation not individuals. Everything in the Mass is not a community action. You have just said that in your first sentence. You can’t have it both ways. People close their eyes bless themselves bow their heads but that is not part of the community of the mass. The Girm instructs the congregation in what every one is suppose to do and nowhere does it say to hold hands. Since it tells you what you may do as a community action, the fact that it doesn’t say to hold hands means it shouldn’t be done. It is liturgically unsound. Why is it done? What purpose does it serve? It seems silly to be holding hands and then turn and wish people peace. It draws people to think of themselves instead of Jesus.

 

[ncjohn]

The Girm instructs the congregation in what every one is suppose to do and nowhere does it say to hold hands. Since it tells you what you may do as a community action, the fact that it doesn’t say to hold hands means it shouldn’t be done. It is liturgically unsound.

I thought you had finally understood this, but here you are back at it again with the same incorrect arguments.

Holding hands cannot be* directed *to be done. To that extent you are correct. Beyond that though–and I have seen very few cases where it is directed–it is a spontaneous individual action, the same as closing your eyes or bowing your head. People are free to participate or not participate, however much some might want to argue that they just feel “pressured” to participate. Yes, it may come to be the “norm” in some parishes by virtue of the predominant culture of the parish. But that doesn’t make it a community action as anyone is still free to not participate.

Please stop with the “it’s a community action and it shouldn’t be done” statements as they are untrue unless a situation exists where people are being directed to do so. The bishops have been asked this question and replied that there is no rule, and they are the ones delegated the authority by Rome. We don’t get to make up a rule where one doesn’t exist, nor to proclaim it “liturgically unsound.”

Why is it done? What purpose does it serve? It seems silly to be holding hands and then turn and wish people peace. It draws people to think of themselves instead of Jesus.

To you it may be silly. To others of us it has a profound symbolism of communal worship. It does not draw us to “thinking of ourselves instead of Jesus” but provides a visible sign of the Body of Christ praying to OUR Father. It is completely different from the Sign of Peace, which is a separate visible sign of wishing the peace of Christ to those around you.

You may not appreciate the symbolism but that doesn’t mean it isn’t there, and to be making judgments about symbols that do resonate with other people is as uncharitable as are those who would impose on you to hold hands if you do not wish to. There are many signs and symbols within the Mass. Different ones resonate more or less with different people, and there are a number of them so as to hopefully have everyone drawn to at least some of them. If you don’t like this one, by all means pass it by. But please stop making judgments about those of us for whom it has great meaning and telling us we aren’t allowed to do so. It just ain’t so.

Peace,

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Holding hands cannot be* directed *to be done. To that extent you are correct. Beyond that though–and I have seen very few cases where it is directed–it is a spontaneous individual action, the same as closing your eyes or bowing your head. People are free to participate or not participate, however much some might want to argue that they just feel “pressured” to participate. Yes, it may come to be the “norm” in some parishes by virtue of the predominant culture of the parish. But that doesn’t make it a community action as anyone is still free to not participate.

There may be no liturgical rule which requires us to participate, but in a parish where it has become the norm, and many of the people assume that it’s required, I don’t believe there is any way, consistent with Christian charity, to decline to hold hands. So while it isn’t a liturgical rule, when these ‘individual actions’ become so common, it becomes a moral rule. There is simply no way to politely decline to hold hands with someone who reasonably thinks it is required (and many if not most of the people there will think that because they have not studied liturgy).

If you know of a way to decline holdings hands with someone who takes your hand without it being offered, in a way that is consistent with Christian charity, that won’t hurt someone’s feelings, please let us know about it. And keep in mind that by the time this happens, the Lord’s prayer will be underway, and there is also the rule about not talking to each other when you should be praying.