A
adrift
Guest
I thought you had finally understood this, but here you are back at it again with the same incorrect arguments.
Only incorrect to you. You never point to anything but your own opinion.
Should hand holding at the Our Father be a cause for division among the Faithful?
- Status
R
RunningLawyer
Guest
But what about cases where it is directed. We stopped going to one church because the priest would say āNow join hands for the Our Father.ā He would then walk in the aisle between the first row and hold hands with those on either side of him. Everyone stretched out to hold hands. The people on the ends held hands with those in front of them or behind them. My wife felt very uncomfortable.
Oh, and it was a very āinclusiveā parish.
S
Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
I now clasp my hands in prayer and close my eyes. So far no one has yanked me out of it.
N
ncjohn
Guest
The simplest way, if there are indeed uncharitable people poking at you or some other obvious thing, is to ask the priest to remind everyone that it is not a required action, in line with the statement put out by Archbishop Chaput.
If the priest is not amenable to doing so, I would simply hold my hands together and not give in, without giving a glare or some other uncharitable response. You can explain yourself after Mass if you feel so inclined though there is no need to do so. That is what I did for many years myself when I was firmly against it for personal reasons.
That someone else acts uncharitably in being pushy does not require you to comply, nor does it mean that you need to act uncharitably in return, however they might perceive it.
Yes, it can feel a little uncomfortable going against the crowd, but if that is an issue, being Catholic at all can make one very uncomfortable given the attitude towards Catholics by much of the world.
Peace,
A
agangbern
Guest
In our parish here in the Philippines the participants in the mass know what the holding of the hands is all about. There are families who like to hold hands among family members themselves when praying the Our Father, while others donāt do it. So one would see that others are holding hands while others are not. There is no feeling of compulsion anywhere. Everyone is free to express with their hands what they feel while reciting the prayer. Holding hands is a pleasure among family members. They probably have common feelings among themselves.
N
ncjohn
Guest
I have quoted Vatican documents. I have quoted the USCCB directions on the matter. You might continue to choose to ignore them but I have quoted them over and over, as have others.
As I have said, if it is being directed that is wrong and not allowed. Similarly it is not allowed to direct to NOT do it. There is no rule for or against and the priest is not allowed to make one up based on his preference.
No, it isnāt. As long as it isnāt directed it is an individual action to which each individual can make their own choice.
While the Pope has ultimate jurisdiction, that jurisdiction to regulate gestures was delegated to the conferences of bishops.
If you have priests directing people to do this, you are legitimately entitled to ask them to stop, and to go to the bishop and ask him to enforce it if needed. I have only seen that happen once, by a visiting priest. If it was to happen in a parish I attended I would be as upset as you appear to be and I would address it as needed, even though I personally do find it meaningful.
It proved nothing of the sort, and actually āprovedā nothing at all. It simply explained the rationale behind the action.
Thanks for the personal attack. I have tried to judge no one at all, but to promote a charitable response on the part of everyone to what is a legitimate choice. I have been on both sides of this issue and take no position that it is right or wrong, only that it is indeed allowed. In fact, as Iāve stated before, it would seem to meet all of the qualifications of an āimmemorial customā under Canon Law.
I will continue to agree with you that no third party should be directing it, and that no individual should be imposing it on anyone else. I will continue to follow the Church however, through its delegated servants, that it is permissible for those who wish to participate and will continue to object when people try to state that it is not.
Peace,
A
agangbern
Guest
That is wonderful attitude!
A
adrift
Guest
C
Cathryn
Guest
Hand holding is divisive when the person next to you takes your hand against your will. I do not believe it should be done at Mass, but I also believe it is un-Christian to refuse someoneās hand who gives it to me. This I believe should be discouraged from the top. At my church we donāt hold hands, but the tourist coming through in the summer will reach for our hands, because Catholic parishes throughout the country are doing different things, some holding their hands up like the priest. I put my hands together in prayer and look ahead, but now and then someone will take it anyway. I believe this is divisive. We are standing together, isnāt this the sign of our unity in saying the Our Father?
M
Mary_ann_R
Guest
I agree. As I stated in post (#37) the Bishop in our diocese and the priests said that we are not to hold hands because the Our Father is a prayer of unity between Jesus and the people, not unity between the people and each other.
N
ncjohn
Guest
While I may not have posted the links in this thread, I did reference the documents and have posted the links dozens of times in the bunches of threads on this topic. Briefly, there is 11 Noticiae 1975 in which the Vatican was asked if it was ok to subsitute holdiing hands at the Our Father for the sign of Peace. The reply was that it could not be substituted. Conspicuously absent in the reply was any repudiation of the holding hands itself. That is also one way we know that this has been around in widespread fashion since at least 1975.
The USCCB statement was in a response about whether it was ok to use the Orans position during the Our Father. There response was that there is no prescribed position for the hands during the Our Father, which answer of course would also apply to holding hands, folding oneās hands, or putting oneās hands in oneās pockets. Again, a specific question was asked about hand positions during the Our Father. If there was something improper about holding hands, or there was some specific posture to be had, they would certainly have taken the opportunity to address that.
Additiionally, Redemptionis Sacramentum, the document promulgated to address abuses, specifically does not address this in any way, while dealing with lots of actual abuses, both large and small. Being as this has been a hot topic of discussionāperhaps THE hot topic of discussionāfor so many years, it most certainly would have been addressed if it were considered an abuse or improper.
On the other side now, no one has yet to come up with a single document from someone in authority at the Vatican to show that it is considered improper. Unless someone can produce such a statement, which is unlikely since Cardinal Arinze himself said when he was in St. Louis there was no current intent to deal with that , it is pretty clear that the Church does not consider it an issue of importance.
I donāt ignore it at all. I have not found it to be the case in any of the many parishes I have attended in either this country or in Europe. But I clearly agree that that should not happen and that one has a legitimate gripe if it does. Even if it does though it doesnāt force anyone to participate. One still is allowed to refuse.
It has been documented many times. I donāt have the link handy but Iāll try to look it up again when I have some spare time.
Agreed
No, I didnāt say that. I said it presents a visible sign of the Body of Christ praying communally, which is appropriate since the Our Father is the one communal prayer offered by the people in the Mass rather than by the priest.
I did not attack you. I noted that the statements and judgments you had made were uncharitable. There is a huge difference between citing a specific act as questionable and tarring a person as being judgmental. Itās the old āhate the sin but love the sinnerā kind of thing, or as I used to tell my kids when they were small āI love you but I donāt much like what you just did.ā
If you perceived it as an attack, I apologize for possibly wording what I said badly, as I certainly feel no need to attack you even if we might disagree on some things. I know you are as devoted to God and Church as I am and have no desire of creating division. My sole purpose is to try to bring all to Christian charity with one another, especially in things that are simple personal preferences.
Peace,
- Status