Should homosexual people be allowed to visit their partners in hospital when it's 'family only'?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Lethe
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I and many other people I know live in loving, committed, and long-standing relationships with people of the same sex. We are definitely not homosexual partners! :rolleyes:
In my previous post I said (twice!) that I was not giving a definition, but only pointing to an element of one. Since what you’ve written shows that you still think I was giving a definition, I can only conclude that you are deliberately misinterpreting what I wrote. Please either read my posts more carefully, or don’t respond to them.
 
WHERE is your morality? It’s people like you who are what is wrong with this world. With statements like that, I really think you are beyond help.

EVERYONE deserves the right to be treated equally in this situation, whether one is gay, straight, of different ethnic background, religious beliefs, gender…regardless.

Who’s sexuality are you threatened by anyway… theirs or your own.

Pathetic.
I think that we should let anyone that the patient wishes to see, or rather would wish to see, if that fact is established beforehand, see the patient. Why do we care who visits who in the hospital? As long as hordes of people are not disrupting Doctors and Nurses from their other patients then no harm. If i would rather see my Church friends then my family who i am estranged from why can’t i see my brothers and sisters in Christ? If a homosexual person would rather see their partner i don’t see the harm in letting the healthy visit the sick no matter who they are. If sinners and saints want to visit the sick let em do so. This being said i still think Homosexuality is sinful and i don’t think that we should define a homosexual relationship as a marriage, but i am sure that we can throw the homosexual community a bone on this issue and not be in compromise.
 
It is true that the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops does not restrict access to hospital patients to family and loved ones exclusively. This would be the reason I used the qualifier “such as” in my last response. Of course, if we are strictly construing the directive, it says nothing about visitors at all, merely who will have the right to make medical decisions. Further, in using a subjective term such as “loved ones,” it is obvious that the directive means to leave wide latitude for hospital staff to determine who it is that qualifies and who does not. Such discernment properly takes into account the moral character of the relationship between the patient and the potential visitor.

Irrespective of what sort of illicit activity goes on in a movie theater, the venue is still public. What is more, your attempted parallel fails here as well since movie theaters can and do restrict access to films based on objective criteria, like age. Likewise, hospitals are correct to limit access to patients they are attempting to make well. The objective criteria that hospitals have chosen is one of intimacy usually found, as the USCCB foresees, in family and “loved ones.” A same-sex partner has no legitimate claim to such intimacy and the hospital that refuses to recognize such an attempted claim acts to preserve the truth of what is and is not a genuine “intimate” relationship.
I agree with you that the use of a subjective term (you mentioned “loved ones”) might be allowing a wide latitude to determine who qualifies and who doesn’t. Still, I am used to determining who my “loved ones” are for myself, and not to be told who they are by someone else. That is not the usual way to determine my “loved ones”.

I also agree with you that the quote I gave was about medical decisions. I gave it because Pathia was denied the making of medical decisions, if I recall. I would find it strange to think that the person who makes the medical decisions would not be allowed to visit, but it is possible. Seeing a patient is information. For example, I’d not wish to decide to pull a plug without visiting the person. But, you could be right that they strictly separate the idea of visitation from the making of medical decisions. It isn’t the most natural choice, though.

I’ve agreed all along that access to patients can be restricted. There are legitimate medical or common good reasons to do so.

Perhaps what you are saying about the hospital is that it is a private enterprise, and may set its own rules on its private grounds, debarring anyone they wish from entering the premises. Then, you are further arguing that it is reasonble on moral grounds to pick to debar a person who has committed sodomy with the patient at some time in the past. Perhaps, also, that this brief interlude away from that person may help the patient recover from whatever put them in the hospital. Thus for you, it cannot be compassionate to let them visit the patient in a hospital. But, in some other setting, say a public one, it might be obligatory to let them spend time together, so there is no need to consider if it is compassionate or not.

Actually, I had forgotten until I looked back that you had talked about compassion. That, in itself, helps me to understand what you are saying. (although we do not agree on all poins)
 
I think that we should let anyone that the patient wishes to see, or rather would wish to see, if that fact is established beforehand, see the patient. Why do we care who visits who in the hospital? As long as hordes of people are not disrupting Doctors and Nurses from their other patients then no harm. If i would rather see my Church friends then my family who i am estranged from why can’t i see my brothers and sisters in Christ? If a homosexual person would rather see their partner i don’t see the harm in letting the healthy visit the sick no matter who they are. If sinners and saints want to visit the sick let em do so. This being said i still think Homosexuality is sinful and i don’t think that we should define a homosexual relationship as a marriage, but i am sure that we can throw the homosexual community a bone on this issue and not be in compromise.
“Morality is the best of all devices for leading mankind by the nose” - Friedrich Nietzsche.

Thank you for showing your compassion in this issue free2pray. If only other people like Petergee could be so responsive. Where is the harm indeed.

I am still not content with your ideas for gay marriage, but that is another topic in itself 🙂
 
No. Repeatedly sodomising somebody does not make one a family member.
Do you not realize that homosexuals have feelings and emotions just as much as heterosexuals do? While I do not believe that a homosexual couple and/or their children are a family in the truest sense of the word, I do believe that they should still be allowed to visit their partners in the hospital. Please also note that I am absolutely not condoning homosexual relationships.

Homosexuality is still gravely disordered and homosexual acts are still gravely sinful. Nothing will ever change that. However, we should also note that the Catechism of the Catholic Church says that homosexuals are not to be the target of unjust discrimination:

Perhaps the problem is with the “family only” visitation policy.
If it is “family only” then, no, a homosexual lover isn’t family,
then neither is someone’s best friend of 20 years.
I agree. I believe that the problem is with the “family only” visitation policy. Hospitals need to have a better visitation policy but I am not sure how such a policy would work or even be worded.
 
I agree. I believe that the problem is with the “family only” visitation policy. Hospitals need to have a better visitation policy but I am not sure how such a policy would work or even be worded.
I agree the problem is with the visitor policy
 
To Other Eric:

I never used the phrase “same sex sexual partners.” Please read my posts more carefully if you wish to respond to them.

Again, read my posts more carefully. I am not in any way treating these mutually exploitative and degrading “relationships” as legitimate. I am merely pointing out that Petergee’s definition of “homosexual partners” is broad enough to include sexual friendship, and that this broadness is confusing the issue in his mind because he’s using the same term to discuss sexual friends (who clearly do not deserve visitation rights) and what the rest of us mean by “homosexual partners” (who might just possibly be entitled to visitation rights).
Sexual friendships, oputside of marriage are immoral. There is no distinction to be made. Such a relationship, if left unrepented of, endangers the salvation of those who consent to it. Therefore, Petergee’s definition, broad as you find it, remains valid. Such people ought to be kept apart from each other by whatever means are necessary.
 
Your ideals and beliefs clearly do not show morality.
Morality concerns actions, not ideas or beliefs. Please tell me which of my actions are immoral, and which of my ideals and beliefs are false, and refer me to the relevant paragraph of the Catechism of the Catholic Church which states this.
To address your second statement, do you not think that it is possible for two people of the same sex then to share an emotional connection?
Of course I do, in fact there are many people of my own sex weith whom I share an emotional connexion. Please stop constructing straw-man arguments. Argue against the points I have made if you disagree with them; don’t wrongly assert, without any evidence, that I believe something else (which is false), and and then damn me for holding such a wrong belief.
Does this furthermore mean then, that you agree that gay men “who do not partake in anal sex” should be allowed hospital visiting rights? And also for lesbians as there is also no sodomy involved there?
“Anal sex” (buggery) is only one of many forms of sodomy.
Why do you place the emphasis of “sexual conduct” on visiting rights anyway?
It’s the OP who asked the question, I’m answering like everybody else here. If you think it has no importance, why did you bother reading it?

As I said above, homosexuality is not a sin. Homosexuals are no different to anybody else in that only our CONDUCT can be judged as either good or bad. Hate the bad conduct, love the person doing it.
 
Thank you for showing your compassion in this issue free2pray. If only other people like Petergee could be so responsive.
Perhaps you should confer with the previous poster who complained that I am TOO responsive. Having compassion for somebody does not mean always giving him everything he asks for.
Where is the harm indeed.
The West is awash with the harm caused by the promotion of sodomy. If you haven’t noticed, perhaps you should try swimming for yourself instead of just drifting along with the tide.
 
Do you not realize that homosexuals have feelings and emotions just as much as heterosexuals do? While I do not believe that a homosexual couple and/or their children are a family in the truest sense of the word, I do believe that they should still be allowed to visit their partners in the hospital. Please also note that I am absolutely not condoning homosexual relationships.

Homosexuality is still gravely disordered and homosexual acts are still gravely sinful. Nothing will ever change that. However, we should also note that the Catechism of the Catholic Church says that homosexuals are not to be the target of unjust discrimination:

Now, please also note that my opinion on this matter is just that, my opinion. It is not the infallible judgment of the Magisterium. Therefore, if the Magisterium decides or has already decided that the opinion I expressed is wrong, I am open to correction and will gladly defer to their better judgment.

I agree. I believe that the problem is with the “family only” visitation policy. Hospitals need to have a better visitation policy but I am not sure how such a policy would work or even be worded.
I suggest you read my comments more carefully if you are under the impression that I disagree with anything you have said.
 
In my previous post I said (twice!) that I was not giving a definition, but only pointing to an element of one. Since what you’ve written shows that you still think I was giving a definition, I can only conclude that you are deliberately misinterpreting what I wrote. Please either read my posts more carefully, or don’t respond to them.
I did read your posts carefully. You said that, according to your proposed new definition, sodomising each other is not an essential element of being “homosexual partners”, but that one element of being “homosexual partners” is living in loving, committed, and long-standing relationships with people of the same sex.

I pointed out that there are people who have this element who are definitely not homosexual partners according to the understanding of any reasonable person. How on earth have I misrepresented you?
 
why are two certain people so obsessed with the sexual activity of others on this thread when in no place did the OP say about that private issue and nor did the video which was posted ?

this question is posed for those two people …
disregard the sexual practises of who, where, what and how people are having with another behind closed doors and answer a very simple question … a simple question that requires only a one word response … yes or no. should two people who are in a commited and loving relationship with each other be allowed to see their partner in hospital ?
 
Morality concerns actions, not ideas or beliefs. Please tell me which of my actions are immoral, and which of my ideals and beliefs are false… Don’t wrongly assert, without any evidence, that I believe something else (which is false), and and then damn me for holding such a wrong belief…
Excuse me, my refutation is valid. Your ideals are false, and the past few opinions and beliefs that you have expressed are offensive and more importantly most unfounded. “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof”. I do not see any proof in support of your argument? Subseqeuntly what I have said is supported and does not fit the above definition of a “straw man” argument. It’s actually looking more like you who fits the definition.
Anal sex" (buggery) is only one of many forms of sodomy.
Please do elaborate.
Perhaps you should confer with the previous poster who complained that I am TOO responsive. Having compassion for somebody does not mean always giving him everything he asks for.
Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people. What a fine example of this your actions are… Please can you explain what you on about here? And why are you trying to play people off against one another? I thought this was a discussion forum, not a playground for needless arguments? In serious response to your quote - Who has been given what here??
The West is awash with the harm caused by the promotion of sodomy. If you haven’t noticed, perhaps you should try swimming for yourself instead of just drifting along with the tide.
Really? Well many would say the same of you… “Religion is like a virus that affects the behaviour of its host in such a way as to propagate itself further.” –Jack Pritchard. Now who is the mindless sheep in this picture? Also I do not drift with the tide, I walk on transcendent water.

The inspiration of the bible depends on the ignorance of the person who reads it. – Robert G. Ingersoll
 
why are two certain people so obsessed with the sexual activity of others on this thread when in no place did the OP say about that private issue and nor did the video which was posted ?

this question is posed for those two people …
disregard the sexual practises of who, where, what and how people are having with another behind closed doors and answer a very simple question … a simple question that requires only a one word response … yes or no. should two people who are in a commited and loving relationship with each other be allowed to see their partner in hospital ?
100 percent YES my friend.

This is why I originally came into this thread. Yes they should be allowed that right.

Why can certain people not either agree with or disagree with this sensibly? Certain people keep bringing ‘sexual conduct’ into the discussion, when that is not and should not even be relevant, however Petergee seems to think it is :rolleyes:

I think some of his remarks are starting to cross the line tbh
 
I think some of his remarks are starting to cross the line tbh
lol

looking at the very early and often quoted comment (i think we all know which one) i dont think he is starting to cross the line i think he started out a long way past it
 
You have ignorantly and stupidly committed the commutative fallacy.
Saying “all cats are animals” does not equal saying “all animals are cats”.
Just as saying “sodomising someone makes you a family member” does not equal saying “the only way to become a family member is to sodomise somebody”.
Then your point means little, adds nothing, and just shows you have no clue or say in the situation.
 
Then your point means little, adds nothing, and just shows you have no clue or say in the situation.
I totally agree Jermosh 🙂
40.png
aussie_jaz:
lol. looking at the very early and often quoted comment (i think we all know which one) i dont think he is starting to cross the line i think he started out a long way past it…
Yeah! The line’s been passed such a long time ago, it’s now just a dot in the distance. (Probably around the same place he left his manners…) 😉

I fear a wannabe Fred Phelps is in the room… :bigyikes: lol
 
Still waiting for you to heap the same abuse on the poster who claimed, based only on stories he said he had heard, that it is common practice for the exact opposite to occur.
I don’t recall that other poster claiming their views were fact like you did. You specifically said that everything you said was a fact, and you are now trying to worm out of it. Why not just admit it was an opinion bases on your experiences?
If you think you are being abused then I am sorry for that but if you make fantastic claims like the ones you did, then expect to be called on it.
 
I am VERY close to requesting a suspension of this topic from SJ.
Either post in charity or infractions, suspensions, and outright bans will occur.
Thank you.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top