Should homosexuals receive communion?

[dconklin]

If I spend all of my time at Mass wondering if someone might be gay, should I receive Communion?

 

[Seamus_L]

Thing is there are Catholic churches where people are very openly homosexual.

 

[EasterJoy]

Thing is there are Catholic churches where people are very openly homosexual.

Well, being homosexual isn’t a sin. You can walk around looking like Don Juan, and it doesn’t make you an adulterer.

 

[dshix]

Well, being homosexual isn’t a sin. You can walk around looking like Don Juan, and it doesn’t make you an adulterer.

There is no such thing as a “homosexual” person. There are homosexual temptations, inclinations, and actions, but there is not “homosexual” body type or gender.

A person isn’t homosexual until they do such an act.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

There is no such thing as a “homosexual” person. There are homosexual temptations, inclinations, and actions, but there is not “homosexual” body type or gender.

A person isn’t homosexual until they do such an act.

Does this mean one isn’t a heterosexual unless one engages in such an act?

 

[dshix]

Does this mean one isn’t a heterosexual unless one engages in such an act?

All of us have a gender; either male or female. “Homosexual” or “heterosexual” are the modern terms to address the sexual actions of a person. I personally dislike using the word " “homosexual” because by doing so it is as if I am calling that type of action legitimate.

Naturally, we are all intended to be heterosexual in our actions. Our actual biology commands it. However, I do not say that a person is “heterosexual” naturally because that suggests that they are heterosexual as opposed to homosexual, or bisexual, etc, both the latter of which are illegitimate.

I hope those sentences made sense. It was rather hard to explain.

 

[EasterJoy]

There is no such thing as a “homosexual” person. There are homosexual temptations, inclinations, and actions, but there is not “homosexual” body type or gender.

A person isn’t homosexual until they do such an act.

Actually, the Church refers to those with deep-seated homosexual tendencies as homosexual persons in the Catechism. Brain studies seem to indicate that homosexuals may experience these tendencies because of organic differences in their bodies, especially in their brains…but the jury is out on that. It certainly cannot be said that anyone has shown that there isn’t a physical basis for anyone’s homosexual temptations or inclinations. Right now, the data seems to say that yes, there often is. (It ought to be obvious, however, that a person does not need to have homosexual tendencies in an organic sense in order to choose to indulge in homosexual acts for other reasons. You don’t have to be in a homicidal rage to kill someone, and you don’t have to have biology pressing upon you to decide to engage in homosexual acts, either.)

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

**2358 **The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

**2359 **Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

 

[dshix]

Actually, the Church refers to those with deep-seated homosexual tendencies as homosexual persons in the Catechism. Brain studies seem to indicate that homosexuals may experience these tendencies because of organic differences in their bodies, especially in their brains…but the jury is out on that. It certainly cannot be said that anyone has shown that there isn’t a physical basis for anyone’s homosexual temptations or inclinations. Right now, the data seems to say that yes, there often is. (It ought to be obvious, however, that a person does not need to have homosexual tendencies in an organic sense in order to choose to indulge in homosexual acts for other reasons. You don’t have to be in a homicidal rage to kill someone, and you don’t have to have biology pressing upon you to decide to engage in homosexual acts, either.)

This is interesting. You are not conceding, however, that people who are considered “homosexual” actually have an extra organ or lack thereof, are you?

Homosexual tendencies, I agree could definitely be seen in the brain, but that doesn’t mean the person himself is different than other people.

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

**2358 **The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

**2359 **Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

You’ll note that these passages say “Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women,” “homosexual tendencies,” and “homosexual acts.”

I do not deny, in fact I advocate, the fact that there are homosexual tendencies, actions, or relations. What I am countering is the idea that there is some kind of “hybrid” body type that is different from everybody else, and is physically homosexual. As of yet, no one has given me scientific proof to say otherwise.

The last passage, 2359, says that “Homosexual persons are called to chastity.” I agree with this. Any person with homosexual tendencies should not act on them, but should try to open their heart to God and let Him heal their heart.

 

[EasterJoy]

This is interesting. You are not conceding, however, that people who are considered “homosexual” actually have an extra organ or lack thereof, are you?

Homosexual tendencies, I agree could definitely be seen in the brain, but that doesn’t mean the person himself is different than other people.

You’ll note that these passages say “Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women,” “homosexual tendencies,” and “homosexual acts.”

I do not deny, in fact I advocate, the fact that there are homosexual tendencies, actions, or relations. What I am countering is the idea that there is some kind of “hybrid” body type that is different from everybody else, and is physically homosexual. As of yet, no one has given me scientific proof to say otherwise.

The last passage, 2359, says that “Homosexual persons are called to chastity.” I agree with this. Any person with homosexual tendencies should not act on them, but should try to open their heart to God and let Him heal their heart.

How can you agree with the statement “Homosexual persons are called to chastity” when you are also contending that there is no such thing as a “homosexual person”? That doesn’t make sense. If any part of a statement is false, the whole statement is false.

Besides, what is your point, exactly? That homosexuality isn’t a “real thing”, but is…what? Do you think it is simply a disorder in the will? A bad habit of thinking? What?

A blind person doesn’t necessarily lack an organ, but rather has an organ that does not function normally. A person with borderline personality doesn’t lack an organ. A demented person does not lack an organ. An alcoholic does not lack an organ. The list could go on, but you get the picture. Blindness, borderline personality, dementia, and alcoholism are real medical issues, not simply problems rooted in a disordered will.

I didn’t say that the science proves that there are specific changes in the brain that cause a homosexual orientation. I did say that there do seem to be physical differences between the brains of those who self-identify as homosexuals and those who don’t. There certainly is no proof that the brains of heterosexuals and people with deep-seated homosexual tendencies aren’t different. That does not fit the evidence. So you can say, “I don’t think the apparent trend being seen will hold up when there is more data”, but you can’t say “they keep looking, but no one who has looked has seen any possible differences.” That’s just not true.

It is possible to lust after people of your own gender for reasons that don’t have to do with your brain anatomy or chemistry. In that sense, having temptations against chastity that involve acts with others of your own gender doesn’t have to be rooted in your physical make-up. That doesn’t mean, however, that it can be said that it never is. The science does not support that conclusion.

 

[Lady_Love]

I had a priest tell me in confession once, after I revealed to him how entangled I was in sin and it’s consequences, “You really got yourself in a pickle. You did not get into this mess overnight and you will not get out of it overnight. I give you absolution on the condition that you have a firm purpose to take steps everyday that move you in the direction that gets you out of your situation.”

The priest absolving me in this fashion protected me from discouragement. It also allowed me to draw on the strength of God, knowing that I am still in communion with him and we could get out of this situation together. What was an impossible mess took us a minimum of 3 years to resolve. But I did not give up on God and God did not give up on me.

I think whether or not a homosexual can receive communion is between him and his priest.

 

[dshix]

How can you agree with the statement “Homosexual persons are called to chastity” when you are also contending that there is no such thing as a “homosexual person”? That doesn’t make sense. If any part of a statement is false, the whole statement is false.

By “homosexual person” I meant, of course, a person who does such acts or has such tendencies.

Besides, what is your point, exactly? That homosexuality isn’t a “real thing”, but is…what? Do you think it is simply a disorder in the will? A bad habit of thinking? What?

My point is that a person isn’t just a homosexual bodytype by nature. They become so by vice, their actions, the choices of their will, and the mindset into which they place themselves.

A blind person doesn’t necessarily lack an organ, but rather has an organ that does not function normally. A person with borderline personality doesn’t lack an organ. A demented person does not lack an organ. An alcoholic does not lack an organ. The list could go on, but you get the picture. Blindness, borderline personality, dementia, and alcoholism are real medical issues, not simply problems rooted in a disordered will.

Agreed.

I didn’t say that the science proves that there are specific changes in the brain that cause a homosexual orientation. I did say that there do seem to be physical differences between the brains of those who self-identify as homosexuals and those who don’t. There certainly is no proof that the brains of heterosexuals and people with deep-seated homosexual tendencies aren’t different.

Your last sentence here, if I remove the double negative, reads, “There certainly is proof that the brains of heterosexuals and people with deep-seated homosexual tendencies are different.”

This directly contradicts your first sentence in this paragraph. Please explain this, and show me scientific proof that you have to show that the brain of a “homosexual” person is physically different from that of another person.

That does not fit the evidence. So you can say, “I don’t think the apparent trend being seen will hold up when there is more data”, but you can’t say “they keep looking, but no one who has looked has seen any possible differences.” That’s just not true.

Please clarify this section. I’m not quite sure where you are going.

It is possible to lust after people of your own gender for reasons that don’t have to do with your brain anatomy or chemistry. In that sense, having temptations against chastity that involve acts with others of your own gender doesn’t have to be rooted in your physical make-up. That doesn’t mean, however, that it can be said that it never is. The science does not support that conclusion.

Agreed. This is a homosexual tendency, or inclination. This occurs normally, as part of the result of the Fall. This is NOT a different genus of person, or “homosexual person,” just their inclinations.

 

[EasterJoy]

By “homosexual person” I meant, of course, a person who does such acts or has such tendencies.

My point is that a person isn’t just a homosexual bodytype by nature. They become so by vice, their actions, the choices of their will, and the mindset into which they place themselves.

Agreed.

Your last sentence here, if I remove the double negative, reads, “There certainly is proof that the brains of heterosexuals and people with deep-seated homosexual tendencies are different.”

This directly contradicts your first sentence in this paragraph. Please explain this, and show me scientific proof that you have to show that the brain of a “homosexual” person is physically different from that of another person.

Please clarify this section. I’m not quite sure where you are going.

Agreed. This is a homosexual tendency, or inclination. This occurs normally, as part of the result of the Fall. This is NOT a different genus of person, or “homosexual person,” just their inclinations.

No, the lack of proof that something is not so is NOT AT ALL the same as there being proof that the thing is so. That is like saying that “not guilty” is the same as “innocent”. They aren’t the same thing, not by a long shot, and I do not care if some grammar expert doesn’t want the English language to have a way to express that. (Personally, it is my opinion that my sentence is not an example of what is usually called a double negative, such as the sentence “there isn’t no way I’m going to do that”, which uses repeated negatives to express that the speaker is adamant that they will not do the thing.)

You say, “a person isn’t just a homosexual body type by nature. They become so by vice, their actions, the choices of their will, and the mindset into which they place themselves.” The Church does not teach that. The Church teaches that a certain segment of the population has these tendencies and the Church purposefully avoids teaching that this is their fault in any way, shape, or form. Rather, the Church leaves open the possibility that a person can have deep-seated homosexual tendencies without having done a single thing to invite or hold on to these tendencies.

IOW, the Church teaches that an innocent person can also be a homosexual person at the same time. If we agree on that, I think the rest is splitting hairs.

 

[dshix]

No, the lack of proof that something is not so is NOT AT ALL the same as there being proof that the thing is so. That is like saying that “not guilty” is the same as “innocent”. They aren’t the same thing, not by a long shot, and I do not care if some grammar expert doesn’t want the English language to have a way to express that. (Personally, it is my opinion that my sentence is not an example of what is usually called a double negative, such as the sentence “there isn’t no way I’m going to do that”, which uses repeated negatives to express that the speaker is adamant that they will not do the thing.)

Fair enough. Even though I still disagree, I’ll take what you said as you said it.

“There certainly is no proof that the brains of heterosexuals and people with deep-seated homosexual tendencies aren’t different.”

To say this suggests that I need to prove that there is proof that the brains of “heterosexual” and “homosexual” persons are different. This is asking me to prove a negative, which is impossible, so you have to prove the positive.

You say, “a person isn’t just a homosexual body type by nature. They become so by vice, their actions, the choices of their will, and the mindset into which they place themselves.” The Church does not teach that. The Church teaches that a certain segment of the population has these tendencies and the Church purposefully avoids teaching that this is their fault in any way, shape, or form. Rather, the Church leaves open the possibility that a person can have deep-seated homosexual tendencies without having done a single thing to invite or hold on to these tendencies.

IOW, the Church teaches that an innocent person can also be a homosexual person at the same time. If we agree on that, I think the rest is splitting hairs.

Actually, I agree with this. I agree that a person can be inflicted with temptations and inclinations outside of their own will. I guess I didn’t quite convey that I believed that well enough in my last post.

Further, this part:

Rather, the Church leaves open the possibility that a person can have deep-seated homosexual tendencies without having done a single thing to invite or hold on to these tendencies.

is actually the entire point I’ve been attempting to get across. A person has homosexual tendencies which cause them to have great difficulty avoiding that kind of sin, but it still definitely possible and necessary for them to do remain chaste.

---

I get the feeling that we somehow misunderstood each other, because this post of yours makes me realize we are pretty much on the same page. My whole point, which is the reason I made that short first post which set off this chain of conversation, is that there is not a “homosexual” body type or brain type; only homosexual tendencies, temptations, inclinations, and actions.

 

[triumphguy]

This is interesting. You are not conceding, however, that people who are considered “homosexual” actually have an extra organ or lack thereof, are you?

Homosexual tendencies, I agree could definitely be seen in the brain, but that doesn’t mean the person himself is different than other people.

You’ll note that these passages say “Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women,” “homosexual tendencies,” and “homosexual acts.”

I do not deny, in fact I advocate, the fact that there are homosexual tendencies, actions, or relations. What I am countering is the idea that there is some kind of “hybrid” body type that is different from everybody else, and is physically homosexual. As of yet, no one has given me scientific proof to say otherwise.

The last passage, 2359, says that “Homosexual persons are called to chastity.” I agree with this. Any person with homosexual tendencies should not act on them, but should try to open their heart to God and let Him heal their heart.

Well by definition a person wouldn’t be homosexual if they had a hybrid body type since *homo *means “same”.

Where’s the head-smacking smiley when you need it?

Here it isuch:

 

[johnnyjones]

This thread is bordering on overkill. Like I said about 20 posts ago, are you running up to priests when you think a hetero man or woman had sex before or outside of marriage? Confession is available to us all and we don’t always know what others are doing. Moreover, we can call sin, sin. But how deep do you want to get into parish members lives. Let the clergy handle it… and God.

 

[yellowbird]

If I spend all of my time at Mass wondering if someone might be gay, should I receive Communion?

And you made me giggle.

 

[EasterJoy]

This thread is bordering on overkill… Let the clergy handle it… and God.

You’re right…in fact, I think we crossed the border about six exits ago!

 

[EasterJoy]

…I agree that a person can be inflicted with temptations and inclinations outside of their own will…I get the feeling that we somehow misunderstood each other, because this post of yours makes me realize we are pretty much on the same page…

Cool!

 

[VivienneJ]

I wouldn’t do anything.

the best you could do is write an anonymous suggestion to the priest saying maybe to include how one under grave sin should not receive communion and should go to confession first to be in a state of Grace - because in all reality a lot of Catholic’s dont even know that!

I know the discussion has moved on from this post, but truly, never, never, never write an anonymous anything and expect it to result in action. If you feel that strongly about something that you have to write to someone about it, add your name to the statement.

 

[123Strontium]

There’s a couple of older gentlemen at my church and to rely on all sterotypes, they look, act and sound homosexual.

When I watched them go to communion one Sunday I wondered to myself, are they actually gay or just effiminate? Maybe they have medical problems affecting hormones so they sound “gay”? Maybe they’re brothers? Roommates? If they are gay, maybe they live a chaste life, as brothers and are more than able to take communion? Maybe they car pool and that’s why they arrive together, and gay or not have no actual relationship? The list in my head went on and on…

In the end, I figured if I was that worried about their apparent homosexual behaviour I should just pray for them.

I have met men who I thought were the gayest of the gay, so outwardly homosexual it makes those guys on queer eye for the straight guy seem hetro, and then it turns out those men were actually straight, church going individuals with wives!

There’s too many variables, so you just end up getting all worked up over what’s probably nothing. If you still feel unsettled, prayer for them. Only God and only those people know how they’re living.

haha, that made me laugh. You went through my entire thought process more or less.