Should I “formally leave” the Church? #integrity

[Irishmom2]

I am going to go out on a limb and say this. I think most people have something they have trouble with. I think you would be hard pressed to find someone that believes 100% of Church teaching. But I don’t think most people leave over it. Does that mean we/they all lack integrity? I don’t know. But I don’t worry about what other people think. It’s between me and God.

 

[stpurl]

Back on the old forum we used to have the Hook, Line, and Sinker club, of which I was a proud member, which stated that we believed every item which the Church taught requiring belief. . .hook, line, and sinker. Still do.

Doesn’t make me better than anybody else, because personally I believe that those who might struggle are going to wind up with deeper and greater gifts because they believe ‘in spite of’ their doubts, but maybe those of us who do ‘believe it all’ were given that gift of faith to be kind of like little lighthouses for those who are struggling --it’s like, yes, there it is, we can push on, we can find it.

 

[guanophore]

…therefore, one who rejects those propositions which are to be held definitively is opposed to the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Ok, you may not want to say what those propositions are, and why you are opposed, but we all need to grow in faith. None of us begin with the whole. Maybe you have come to the conclusion that you cannot grow into these “propositions”.

I do respect your integrity. If more American Catholics had this, we would not have so many “cafeteria Catholics”.

The only recourse is to believe.

Well, fundamentally “belief” is a choice of the will. One can embrace any number of things about which one does not agree, or think don’t make sense. I am certain, as a member of the armed forces, you have a great deal of experience with this!

The Church would like all those who embrace the faith to be able to give consent with the mind, heart, soul and strength, but for most of us, this takes some time.

One must be willing to believe, though, and be willing to have their heart, mind, and soul brought into compliance with the will. If you are unwilling to be persuaded of the propositions, then you are opposed.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

I should formally request to leave…or defect, right? I understand this would result in a note in my baptismal record. What practical effects would this actually have?

I would be really interested to know how a formal defection works.

I don’t think anyone here would know the practical effects of a formal defection.

I read something a while back, I think it was written by Ratzinger who was the head of the CDF at the time, that went over the steps of a formal defection…or something of the sort.

 

[WillPhillips]

I am going to go out on a limb and say this. I think most people have something they have trouble with. I think you would be hard pressed to find someone that believes 100% of Church teaching. But I don’t think most people leave over it. Does that mean we/they all lack integrity? I don’t know. But I don’t worry about what other people think. It’s between me and God.

Yes, this is my experience as well. Not trying to question others integrity or how they might justify themselves under these requirements (which I’d guess many don’t know). Just an integrity, or intellectual honesty, issue for me in squaring my beliefs with Catholic requirements.

 

[WillPhillips]

Well, fundamentally “belief” is a choice of the will. One can embrace any number of things about which one does not agree, or think don’t make sense. I am certain, as a member of the armed forces, you have a great deal of experience with this!

The Church would like all those who embrace the faith to be able to give consent with the mind, heart, soul and strength, but for most of us, this takes some time.

One must be willing to believe, though, and be willing to have their heart, mind, and soul brought into compliance with the will. If you are unwilling to be persuaded of the propositions, then you are opposed.

Well I guess I’d say I am willing to believe. These propositions could be true. I don’t deny that and am open to further info (indeed have very much wanted that).

But I can’t will myself to believe that which I find unconvincing. It’s not a choice I can consciously make…any more than you could choose to not believe something you’re convinced is true. After all, to admit to having a choice, admits to not being convinced. Anyway, in my case, a clear lack of “holding definitively”.

Also, somewhat ironic I suppose that this came up in context of my military service. My experience with insistence to 100% allegiance, and the issues that arise, has brought integrity to the forefront for me…and plays a part here for sure.

 

[WillPhillips]

I would be really interested to know how a formal defection works.

I don’t think anyone here would know the practical effects of a formal defection.

I read something a while back, I think it was written by Ratzinger who was the head of the CDF at the time, that went over the steps of a formal defection…or something of the sort.

Well my prior understanding was basically a letter to my home diocese, followed by a note in the baptismal register stating as much. But I’m finding little in the form of info online. The Vatican website still has info, and there is a Canadian Catholic site that lists a process (Frequently Asked Questions: Quitting the Catholic Church.), but it appears the process has been halted (see thelittlelady’s link above). I’d be curious to read what Ratzinger wrote if so. Thanks.

Edit: never mind. I see it was Pope Benedict who overturned formal defection.

 

[guanophore]

Well I guess I’d say I am willing to believe. These propositions could be true. I don’t deny that and am open to further info (indeed have very much wanted that).

In that case, you are not “opposed”, just in the same state as Thomas, who prayed “I believe, Lord help my unbelief!”

Those of us that have not “arrived” with all the doctrines of the faith must maintain an attitude of “willingness” and pray that God will show us how to believe as we ought.

But I can’t will myself to believe that which I find unconvincing.

No, and it would not be appropriate to do so. You might wish to supplement your study of canon law with some reading from the Catechism on conscience.
It is a grave sin to fail to follow one’s conscience, as we are all bound to act in accordance with what we are persuaded is true. There are times when the attestation of conscience may appear to be different than what the CC teaches. In such cases, we must follow conscience, and work toward resolution of the apparent discrepancy.

Anyway, in my case, a clear lack of “holding definitively”.

I think you need to take into account that these canon laws are based on some assumptions that may not apply in your case. Canon law is based upon well informed and formed Catholics who have, at one time, embraced all the doctrines of the faith. They are designed to regulate those IN the faith, not those who have not yet entered it.

A vast majority of American Catholics have not been well catechized, and have never even read the canon law, though technically we are all bound by it through our baptism and confirmation. One cannot really “oppose” that to which one has never cleaved. This is a matter of catechesis, and spiritual growth, not “opposition”.

After all, to admit to having a choice, admits to not being convinced.

Yes, but one cannot accurately say that one is “opposed” unless and until one has had an opportunity to bring conscience into synch with the teachings of the Church. No catechumen can embrace everything at baptism/confirmation, as one has not even been exposed to all. One must start at the beginning. Many cradle Catholics need “conversion” as much as those who were raised Protestant.

 

[guanophore]

Also, somewhat ironic I suppose that this came up in context of my military service. My experience with insistence to 100% allegiance, and the issues that arise, has brought integrity to the forefront for me…and plays a part here for sure.

I am sure that it is no mistake that God has led you through this way of life, to the point where you are examining your faith, and seeking to act with integrity as much as you have for your secular career.

When you entered the service, you have no idea what would be asked of you, but you took your oath and started at the beginning. As the years progressed, you learned and understood more in detail what was required of you, and as you grew in wisdom and knowledge, your “assent” became more focused. It is not different in the spiritual life. We cannot know, especially from the cradle, what will be asked of us as we mature. At confirmation, we accept the “adult” responsibility for our faith, but most of us do not get any formal catechesis as adults. I am sure your basic training was only the beginning!

It seems as if you are being called in to some more advanced technical training in your faith. It will build upon the basics, but it will cover new ground that you have not entered previously.

All you need is that “willing” spirit!

 

[joeybaggz]

Well I guess I’d say I am willing to believe. These propositions could be true. I don’t deny that and am open to further info (indeed have very much wanted that).

But I can’t will myself to believe that which I find unconvincing. It’s not a choice I can consciously make…any more than you could choose to not believe something you’re convinced is true. After all, to admit to having a choice, admits to not being convinced. Anyway, in my case, a clear lack of “holding definitively”.

You know, IMO you need to talk to a good solid priest who is well versed in Catholic Theology and put your situation and questions to him. I love the RCC but there are teachings that I am at odds with. In my understanding it comes down to the concept of infallibility in teaching. My understanding is that the church teaches infallibly, that is, it will not teach error. Is everything absolutely right, 100%. Maybe, maybe not; depends on the subject/teaching.
What is believed infallibly by the church, that is all Catholics are obligated to believe, is found in the Creed said at Mass. If you have problems with that, you have a valid point about leaving. The only other doctrine we must believe is the Doctrine of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin, declared infallible in 1950. Nothing else has been declared an Infallible Doctrine by the Pope or by the all the bishops speaking on a matter of faith or morals in one voice.
I wonder if your inability to believe might be tied up with a misunderstanding of the nature of the teachings you have questions concerning. For that, you need a good priest steeped in Catholic Theology. Seek one out before you head out the door.
Shalom

 

[RandomAlias]

I see it was Pope Benedict who overturned formal defection.

And I am beginning to see the wisdom of that – not due to this thread alone or your personal situation, but other things on my mind.

One of the problems with formal defection is that it is based on the erroneous idea that the Church is a mere club or fraternal society in which one may or may not be a member in good standing.

Pope Francis seems to say otherwise when he describes the Church as not a museum for saints, but a hospital for sinners.

It’s interesting that you mention Pope Benedict XVI. Lately I have read – or have tried to read – some of his writings as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. In God Is Near Us, a collection of his homilies and sermons about the Eucharist and many related/interwoven topics, Ratzinger often speaks of the universal aspect of our faith and of our communion with God and all his people.

Club membership doesn’t seem to fit in with the notion of one people of God. If you have faith, hope, and love, however imperfect, you are a member.

At Mass, as I recite the Nicene Creed I am often beset with doubts, and I wonder about the sincerity of my profession of faith. When that happens, I pray at the same time, as I am praying the Creed, “God, do I really believe all this stuff? Lord, help me to believe.” It is not easy. So I think I understand your position. I guess I am putting on the blinders and charging ahead, firm in some beliefs but shaky in others. I hope that God’s mercy is stronger than my doubt.

 

[WillPhillips]

Thanks all. Been a sec but just wanted to say thanks for the respectful and thoughtful responses. Stepping back from the church for now. Just feels right. You’ve definitely given me much to consider. I won’t be stopping my (openminded) search for truth anytime soon. Fair winds and following seas.