Should I close the door on this friendship?

[Em_in_FL]

Netty I have already given you my conclusion but since others object it seem I also need to make known the reasoning, reasoning which has helped me answer most of life’s difficult questions and I hope will be of the same help to you.

Many people here will give you the same kind of lame advice you could have gotten from any secular counsellor akin to what you would expect from Oprah. However as you are a Catholic asking for advice on a Catholic forum I am going to assume you wanted Catholic advice based on Catholicism.

Now here is my reasoning informed by my Catholic Faith.

Why was Netty created?

1. To know God
2. To love and serve God.
3. To be with God in Heaven

Does this Friend assist Netty in fulfilling any of the three purposes of her life? No.

So she is not positive factor in helping you fulfil your God given purpose.

Well the friend could still be neutral.

Is the friend at least a person of good will who recognises that the Catholic Faith is worthy of belief even if she herself does not believe it herself?

No the friend does not so she is not neutral either.

Does the Friend try to undermine your belief in God thus working against your purpose to know God? Yes she does.

Does your friend try to discourage your love of God? Yes she does.

Does your friend threaten the future that awaits you in heaven with God? Yes she does.

This friend is negative and forms an obstacle to you achieving the purposes for which God created you for, this obstacle should be removed, the friendship should be ended.

You can apply that reasoning to pretty much all of life’s decisions and you will always remain on the right path I have found. You may not achieve wealth, fame and popularity but you will achieve the three true purposes for which you were created.

I do understand your perspective… but I have a different one.

I agree… if you believe YOUR faith is being threatened by this friendship, then by all means it’s important to safeguard your own faith. Agree 100%.

But there’s another view of your comments above that seems awfully… selfish (MY faith, MY soul, MY place in heaven, etc… all about “ME”).
There are some people who can go into challenging situations and engage with those who disagree WITHOUT having their faith threatened. In fact, Christ CALLS those with *strong *faiths INTO situations where we can be that light of the world to others. Yes, it can be a challenge… yes it can cause pain and suffering… but sometimes sacrifice can be worth exposing those who are lost to a greater good!

At some point our faith has to stop being about “ME, MYSELF, and I” (which, I agree is the #1 priority)… but once that’s established we have an obligation to go out and evangelize!.. To KNOW, LOVE, and SERVE Christ by LOVING and SERVING OTHERS! (This happens to be the “motto” of our parish, so it’s something that really speaks strongly to me, personally)… We have to step outside ourselves and serve others. Sometimes that requires continuing friendships and being that LIGHT out in the world.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

I do understand your perspective… but I have a different one.

I agree… if you believe YOUR faith is being threatened by this friendship, then by all means it’s important to safeguard your own faith. Agree 100%.

But there’s another view of your comments above that seems awfully… selfish (MY faith, MY soul, MY place in heaven, etc… all about “ME”).
There are some people who can go into challenging situations and engage with those who disagree WITHOUT having their faith threatened. In fact, Christ CALLS those with *strong *faiths INTO situations where we can be that light of the world to others. Yes, it can be a challenge… yes it can cause pain and suffering… but sometimes sacrifice can be worth exposing those who are lost to a greater good!

At some point our faith has to stop being about “ME, MYSELF, and I” (which, I agree is the #1 priority)… but once that’s established we have an obligation to go out and evangelize!.. To KNOW, LOVE, and SERVE Christ by LOVING and SERVING OTHERS! (This happens to be the “motto” of our parish, so it’s something that really speaks strongly to me, personally)… We have to step outside ourselves and serve others. Sometimes that requires continuing friendships and being that LIGHT out in the world.

excellent post! Agree completely!!

 

[EasterJoy]

The main problem with your answer EasterJoy is that the friend would need to hide her hatred of God, the hatred would still be there she would just be hiding it in order to maintain the friendship so the problem is not really solved at all by your method it just becomes hidden and so all the more dangerous.

I have news for you. Dealing badly with the Christians who have failed to live their faith, to the point that they have scandalized you, is not the same as hating God. There are people out there whose main problem with Christians is all the bad press God gets on our account. If that is the friend’s problem, then it deserves a little understanding.

There are people for whom their hatred of the Church will be on their heads. There are also people for whom their hatred of the Church is on ours. (You’ll remember the Lord’s millstone comment at this point.)

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

But there’s another view of your comments above that seems awfully… selfish (MY faith, MY soul, MY place in heaven, etc… all about “ME”)

Then you are reading it wrong it is all about God, doing what God wants us to do, fulfilling Gods purpose for us rather than doing what we want to do.

No one wants to lose a long time friend, it is tough, I know I have had to drop several friends I had known since the age of 4 so that I could follow God. God filed that space with new and better friends then a good and faithful wife when I was ready. But dropping the old friends was hard if I had just been about myself I wouldn’t have done it.

 

[roveau]

I’m just saying what others have but I have been in a very similar situation. You have to tell your friend that her comments on your religion is very hurtful because you take your faith very seriously. Tell her that you value your friendship but you have found her comments and attitude very upsetting considering her former ‘lve and let live attitude’.

I she ignores what you have said, warn her again with your reasons. After that you should refuse her calls for a month or so and then negotiate again. It worked for me but I find I have to give reminders every time the even veiled attempts to slight Catholicism or religion in general happen. 15 years is a long investment to just throw away a friendship.

 

[EasterJoy]

I’m just saying what others have but I have been in a very similar situation. You have to tell your friend that her comments on your religion is very hurtful because you take your faith very seriously. Tell her that you value your friendship but you have found her comments and attitude very upsetting considering her former ‘lve and let live attitude’.

I she ignores what you have said, warn her again with your reasons. After that you should refuse her calls for a month or so and then negotiate again. It worked for me but I find I have to give reminders every time the even veiled attempts to slight Catholicism or religion in general happen. 15 years is a long investment to just throw away a friendship.

I have to agree with Advocatus Fidei on this much: if her reasons really are that she hates the faith, and not that she has become bitter over bad experiences with Christians not living it, that’s a deal-breaker.

IOW, I don’t think the situation calls for ultimatuums. Driving the hostility underground isn’t the goal. I do think it calls for making sure that you understand a friend’s seeming hostility towards the Church. If it is Christians that hurt her, and she isn’t coping with that well, this is different than having a hatred for the faith as Our Lord actually taught it. After 15 years, she deserves to have a chance to explain what her rudeness is all about.

 

[Musician]

Have you considered that this may be a test for you to see if you can evangelize even the hardcore nonbelievers.
I prayed and prayed for my sister, who was a Wiccan for 20 years before she finally converted. She was rude, crude, obnoxious, and mean. I just tried to turn the other cheek and be joyful in the situation. When she converted, she told me that she had always been impressed with my general Christian attitude and that was one reason she converted. Since then we have been on wonderful terms!
The Scriptures tell us to have a ready answer for those who question or abuse our faith, not to stand up for ourselves. In fact, didn’t Jesus say the exact opposite?
I’m not saying be a doormat or anything, DO say something but with love and without being defensive.
You want her to see Christ in you!

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Wow, Musician, yours is a beautiful story!

 

[RHC]

I love Musician’s story.

Your friend is Wiccan. From my understanding, it seems that many Wiccans are fairly “open-minded”; you said your friend used to have the “You’re okay, I’m okay” view, right?

I would start with asking her why she has abandoned this “we’re all okay” view when it comes to your Catholic faith. Why does she feel it’s okay to beat up on Catholics? Bear in mind that it is currently fashionable to make all sorts of Catholic jokes, so perhaps she is following the trend. Perhaps she is angry that you’ve become more devout. Perhaps she’s angry at the Catholic Church. Perhaps it’s none of the above. But I think it’s fair to ask why the sudden change in behavior. Just make sure you ask with love, and make it clear that you’re simply wondering why.

Her answer may give you direction. But perhaps you are called to be a witness, regardless of her reaction or reasons, as Musician said?

Whether your friendship with her is a detriment to your faith, I cannot say. I would say it is partially dependent on how good of a friend she is. Is she your best friend on earth? Or is she a friend who you see once or twice a month to have dinner? If she’s your best friend, she will have more influence over you than a casual dinner-friend. You also might consider - Is your faith strong enough that you can be a good witness? Or are you still finding your way and are shaky in your faith? You don’t need to be perfect to be a strong witness, but, if you are unsure of a lot of things yourself, this may not be the time. You might consult your confessor on this, as he will know you and your personality better than we.

In any case, I recommend cultivating friendships with good, devout Catholics. They will build you in your faith.

 

[Suspicious_Mind]

Oh really, how so, what danger to her soul will result from ceasing to socialise with someone who tries to separate her from God?

Do yourself a favour and leave this enemy of both you and God behind. Friends do not act the way she acts, enemies do, she has become your enemy now, because she hates God more than she ever liked you.

Here comes the prophets of doom and gloom.

There’s always a few lurking around.

“Enemy of God” - :extrahappy: - what a self-righteous holier-than-thou comment to make, especially without actually knowing the person in question.

With this kind of mentality rampant, we’d be back to the dark ages again. Luckily it isn’t.

Netty, to be honest, these are the kinds of people you should avoid, and there’ll be quite a few in the Church, they always hold the “extreme” views of everything - for once, the majority consensus in this thread is right.

 

[Netty1]

Hi Everyone,

Thank you for such thought-provoking replies, every post has given me a great deal to think about.

One thing for sure, my faith is not shaky. It’s new so perhaps I’m little naive at times, but I feel sound on my baby spiritual feet. I know I’m “home” and it’s a long path crammed full of learning, but one I’m really at peace in following.

I was talking to my sister about this last night after posting here, and her perspective is that maybe my friend is just plain jealous.

Because of church and prayer-time and reading time, I have a new routine, there are now times of the week when I am simply not available to just drop everything and run off and do something spontaneous, I have to plan things a bit more to fit everything (and everybody) in. My sister thinks my friend may be hurt by the fear that I am leaving her behind and such fears have brought a knee-jerk angry response.

The ironic thing is that one reason I am loath to just cast her aside because it seems like I am abandoing her with all that anger, and that course of action seemed rather uncharitable.

So, maybe it is time to take the stopper out of the bottle and invite her to vent what her problem is with Catholicism. Your replies here have certainly given a large number of reasons as to why she may have anger.

I’ve printed out these pages of your replies and will have a really deep think and pray about what I should do next. I agree with the general idea that I should at least offer her a chance to vent to get to the bottom of why there is such animosity.

Thanks again everyone, I really do appreciate the time and trouble you’ve taken to reply.

 

[Suspicious_Mind]

Now here is my reasoning informed by my Catholic Faith.

No, it’s illogical reasoning bordering on several philosophical fallacies, and definitely not informed by Catholic Faith, it’s influenced by delusion.

Why was Netty created?

1. To know God
2. To love and serve God.
3. To be with God in Heaven

Does this Friend assist Netty in fulfilling any of the three purposes of her life? No.

That is your own definition of friend, and has no basis in anything religious, hence your subsequent rant and conclusion is incorrect.

So she is not positive factor in helping you fulfil your God given purpose.

There are many things that has nothing to do with God, yet aren’t immoral. Secular music is one. How about a rollercoaster ride? I suppose that’s immoral too, perhaps we should stay away from amusement parks.

Does the Friend try to undermine your belief in God thus working against your purpose to know God? Yes she does.

Or could she be making fun of it because she’s deluded by the media and other anti-Catholic sentiments and perhaps God has it in Netty’s heart to help her friend, and there’s a prophet of gloom lurking on the forums trying to detract Netty from her God given purpose of helping her friend, even though it may take some time?

Oh, light-bulb!

Hang your head in shame.

Does your friend try to discourage your love of God? Yes she does.

Does your friend threaten the future that awaits you in heaven with God? Yes she does.

Let’s not get over-dramatic now, you don’t even know what her intentions are, as with any such thing, when a person makes fun of something, it’s usually because they are not fully aware of what it is, or are afraid of it. In this case, her long friendship with her and sudden change has scared her friend a bit.

This friend is negative and forms an obstacle to you achieving the purposes for which God created you for, this obstacle should be removed, the friendship should be ended.

You can apply that reasoning to pretty much all of life’s decisions and you will always remain on the right path I have found. You may not achieve wealth, fame and popularity but you will achieve the three true purposes for which you were created.

- what next, your step-by-step guide on Sainthood?

 

[VonDerTann]

To the OP: I actually rather agree with Advocatus to a large degree.

The problem IMHO is based on what Wicca really is. Wicca is not some placid, peaceful “worship mother earth,” “I’m okay/you’re okay” faith. It may masquerade as that, and many – including, IMHO, many Wiccans – may see it as that.

But it’s not.

IMHO, it’s perilously close to satanism, even if such proximity is not acknowledged even by its own practitioners. ANY faith which turns to spiritism, or seeks to find a spiritual realm outside of Jesus is basically an invitation to other spirits – evil spirits – to enter our consciousness. That is why Wicca – along with essentially all similar “faiths” – is basically condemned by the Catholic Church. All Christians should be really, REALLY wary of dealing with Wicca and its practitioners.

With that in mind, the OP has basically seen the truth – which is, suffice to say, diametrically opposed to what this Wiccan friend believes.

Under those circumstances, I’m not so sure I wouldn’t walk away from this “friend.” OP has commented on her naivete and the fact that she’s only come to see Jesus in the past few months. With all due respect, I posit that the Wiccan friend may be a bigger danger to the OP than any benefit OP brings by trying to evangelize the friend. Is it okay to pray for her? That’s always more than okay. Is it okay to say to her, “I’m sorry, I can’t abide your behavior any more?” Sure. But as long as Wiccan friend and OP are so diametrically opposed in worldview, IMHO no good is really going to come of this “friendship.” Why? Because OP sees the light, and friend not only isn’t seeing, she’s looking in the totally wrong direction – right into darkness.

Just my $0.02.

Also: Suspicious Mind, I find your snarky and sarcastic comments uncharitable and, quite frankly, unhelpful to reasoned discourse.

 

[NewsTheMan]

I think I agree with Advocatus in many ways; except the point could have been made in a more gentle way which I think is the majority of the threads’ opinion.

I recently went through this too. Actually, just yesterday!
I have a friend with whom I chat often on instant messenger. He is homosexual, and of course very liberal and anti-religion. Anyway, I never had much of a problem with him. But recently he started purposefully antagonising me, telling me how much he loves male genitalia, how beautiful he thinks I am etc, just to get a reaction. I confronted him, said it makes me uncomfortable and if we are to continue our friendship he needs to respect that. He then said that I couldn’t take a joke and I was as cold as a… well, I don’t even want to think about it, but he said something absolutely horrendous about nuns. At that point I said God bless yo friend and goodbye. And that was that.

Sometimes we are called to evangelize and that kinda stuff. But I think its a judgement call. If THEY are doing more harm to us than WE are doing good to them then the relationship isn’t worth it. It isn’t about inadequacy, just that some people are… well, we live in an anti-religious world, nevermind an anti-catholic world.

 

[kenofken]

I am Wiccan, and I still have one of my best friends from high school (going on 26 years now). He’s as Catholic as they come. It works because we know not to start up a theological debate. What would it accomplish? He’s not going to convert me. I have no interest in converting anyone. He felt he couldnt’ come to my wedding because it was a pagan ceremony, and that sucked, but I got over it. The truth is, you can’t really replace longtime friends. You need to try to convince this friend that you’re not abandoning them because of your conversion, and that you’re also not out to “save” them. You should try to get at the root of her apparent disdain for Catholicism and explain to her that you’re not the guy in charge of creating these problems, real or imagined, and that you’re not blind to them. You converted because you were called, presumably as she was to Wicca. People should try to respect that even if they don’t understand it.

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

Unfortunately Ken your view point on the issue is not compatible with Catholicism, to follow what you say the person would need to compromise their Catholic faith.

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

I am Wiccan, and I still have one of my best friends from high school (going on 26 years now). He’s as Catholic as they come. It works because we know not to start up a theological debate. What would it accomplish? He’s not going to convert me. I have no interest in converting anyone. He felt he couldnt’ come to my wedding because it was a pagan ceremony, and that sucked, but I got over it. The truth is, you can’t really replace longtime friends. You need to try to convince this friend that you’re not abandoning them because of your conversion, and that you’re also not out to “save” them. You should try to get at the root of her apparent disdain for Catholicism and explain to her that you’re not the guy in charge of creating these problems, real or imagined, and that you’re not blind to them. You converted because you were called, presumably as she was to Wicca. People should try to respect that even if they don’t understand it.

Unfortunately Ken your view point on the issue is not compatible with Catholicism, to follow what you say the person would need to compromise their Catholic faith.

 

[kenofken]

Unfortunately Ken your view point on the issue is not compatible with Catholicism, to follow what you say the person would need to compromise their Catholic faith.

I don’t see how. The friend I speak of compromises NOTHING in his faith. This guy is a very conservative and obedient Catholic. I think he may even be Opus Dei, or from that end of the spectrum. He doesn’t participate in anything pagan or give any impression that he condones what I do, and I don’t ask him to. There is nothing in Catholic doctrine which demands that Catholics only associate with theologically “pure” people. Lots of cults like Scientology demand such things. Certainly the Wiccan friend is disqualified from serving as a godparent, and if they persist on blaspheming the Catholic faith or actively try to dissuade the OP from it, those are different matters. But if friendly association with non Catholics/Christians is off-limits, then Christians certainly had no business living in the Roman Empire or in today’s world. You would have no choice but to retreat to insular little enclaves in the manner of ultra-Orthodox Judaism or the Taliban…

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

He is suggesting they ask the person what there problem with Catholicism is then in response say something like oh that’s the Church that’s not me, do you really think it is ok to fail to defend the Church in order to look good to a non-Catholic friend? To put the friend above loyalty to God and His Church?

Furthermore the Catholic would have a duty to God to try and lead this person away from devil worship towards the one true faith, they cannot just say to the friend its ok for you to worship the devil we can still be friends, to do so would be to betray God.

 

[kenofken]

He is suggesting they ask the person what there problem with Catholicism is then in response say something like oh that’s the Church that’s not me, do you really think it is ok to fail to defend the Church in order to look good to a non-Catholic friend? To put the friend above loyalty to God and His Church?

Furthermore the Catholic would have a duty to God to try and lead this person away from devil worship towards the one true faith, they cannot just say to the friend its ok for you to worship the devil we can still be friends, to do so would be to betray God.

True loyalty to the Church and God would demand that one acknowledges that some thing done by humans in its name are indefensible. I don’t know what his Wiccan friend’s beef with the church is. It could be something as serious as being an abuse victim. It may be something as trivial as a pastor who was once a jerk to her. It may be a wild misunderstanding about what the church really stands for. The point is, it’s worth the dialogue and to make clear that he is called to serve Christ in this way, and should not be held responsible personally for all the church’s people have done or failed to do in the world.

If indeed this new Catholic has a “duty” to lead others away from their spiritual path, how exactly is breaking off the friendship going to accomplish that? My own friend in no way thinks my religion is ok, but he also accepts that people have free will and that his own God is not a helpless fool who needs humans to mete out his judgement. He’s also smart enough to realize that no one has ever been badgered into true conversion and that the best way, the only real way, to do effective work for Christ is to try to be, well…Christ-like in one’s approach to others. Every circumstance is different, but I simply don’t believe that doctrine demands un-conditional non-association in all such cases. If my friend’s priest or confessor really thought his friendship with me was an issue, I’d have been out the door a long time ago, and I have no doubt it’s come up somewhere along the way.