Should I drop out of college due to scandal vis-à-vis immodesty?

xqr768

New member
Should I drop out of college due to scandal vis-à-vis immodesty? I'm concerned that as a man I am becoming a source of scandal to others by going to a college where most of the female students dress quite immodestly. In addition to this, it is a Catholic university and I take philosophy classes that are of a religious nature. I don't want to give people the impression that this is ok. If you don't understand my concern then consider this: would it be ok for an asexual man to work as a lifeguard?- obviously not because he would be a source of scandal to everyone who saw him. I don't see any real difference between these two situations, and I would rather be on the safe side since "active scandal is a mortal sin."
 
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I hate to say this, but your questions have all the earmarks of scrupulosity. To worry about giving scandal to others by your entirely innocent actions is being scrupulous.

You cannot help what other people do, and I don't think anyone is going to draw any conclusions about you, one way or the other, by your merely attending a university where some of the women dress immodestly. It has nothing to do with you. You're not giving scandal to anyone. If the immodesty is a problem for you, try to cultivate a certain custody of the eyes, but don't be scrupulous about that either. And if you are asexual --- it's not clear from what you say --- then all of this business around you shouldn't bother you. I have to think that asexuality can be a great gift, it removes a lot of the temptations that one would otherwise have. (I'm not asexual, so it's kind of hard for me to shift gears to think in that fashion, I'm just surmising.)

Please find a good, faithful priest and tell him precisely what you have said here. I'm sure he would tell you the same thing.
 
I hate to say this, but your questions have all the earmarks of scrupulosity. To worry about giving scandal to others by your entirely innocent actions is being scrupulous.
But what is the difference? Why is the asexual man working as a lifeguard the mortal sin of scandal, but my situation isn't? And my actions aren't entirely innocent. If I had had my priorities straight when I started I never would have gone to such a place and I don't think any young man should.
 
But what is the difference? Why is the asexual man working as a lifeguard the mortal sin of scandal, but my situation isn't? And my actions aren't entirely innocent. If I had had my priorities straight when I started I never would have gone to such a place and I don't think any young man should.

Who said that an asexual man working as a lifeguard is "the mortal sin of scandal"? I certainly didn't. Exactly what kind of scandal is being given, and what makes it different for an asexual man working as a lifeguard?

Do you understand what "scandal" is? It is causing other people to sin, or living in such a way that other people get the impression that sin is okay. You don't appear to be doing either here. Indeed, much scrupulosity is fueled by worrying about one's innocent actions vis-à-vis others, who, in the end, have free agency and free will. Sin begins in the will.

If you need your education, and I'm assuming you do, you indeed "have your priorities straight". Nobody expects you to deprive yourself of a good college education because of what other people on campus do.

Please see a priest about this, and tell him everything you've told us here.
 
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What is an "asexual man"? It seems to mean simply a man who, for whatever reason, is incapable of being sexually aroused. But that wouldn't be scandalous. @xqr768, would you care to explain what you mean by this term?

And the answer to your question, "Should I drop out of college?", is "No, obviously not."
 
What is an "asexual man"? It seems to mean simply a man who, for whatever reason, is incapable of being sexually aroused. But that wouldn't be scandalous. @xqr768, would you care to explain what you mean by this term?
I meant that an asexual man wouldn't be tempted by going somewhere like a beach with a lot of immodesty but he would still be scandalizing others because they wouldn't know that he was asexual so they would assume that he thought it is ok to expose himself to that proximate occasion of sin.
 
@xqr768, kindly allow me to point out three mistakes in your last post. There may be more, but three is enough to be dealing with for the time being.

First, of course an asexual man might enjoy going to the beach. Just think about it for a moment. For most people, their primary purpose in going to the beach is to lie in the sun and/ or to go for a swim. That’s a very basic reason for going to the beach. That’s what children go to the beach for. Surely you already knew that without needing me to tell you.

Second, people in general aren’t scandalized by seeing women in bikínis. I gather that you are scandalized by that but, once again, surely you already know that you’re in a small minority. Most people just accept it as the normal thing. When they’re on the beach, people wear beachwear, and for the last seventy years or more — that is, for the entire lifetime of nearly everybody — bikinis have been a standard beachwear item. I’m sure you already knew that, too.

Third, when most men or women go to the beach it doesn’t even cross their minds that someone might be mentally condemning them simply for being in the same place as women in bikinis. And even if it did cross their minds, they would dismiss it as being a consideration of no importance.
 
Having another purpose for entering a proximate danger of sin other than committing the sin does not justify entering it unless it's a proportionately grave reason. I think bikinis usually lead almost every man into lustful thoughts which is not surprising given that the woman is naked for all intents and purposes. Part of immodesty is relative to the culture (not wearing a pink suit to mass) while part of it is universal based on the universal nature of the human body (e.g. not wearing clothes that are an occasion of lust for 90% of people). There are plenty of things out there to read explaining why this is the case. I think a good rule of thumb is that if it would be considered immodest anywhere outside the West (meaning the West is the only place where it is not considered immodest) it is immodest, and if it would be considered immodest in most places in 1900 it is immodest. The human body has not changed. That is why even being seen by others at such a place of sin is a problem unless you have a proportionately grave reason for being there, which in the case of the beach, I don't think there really could be one.
 
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@xqr768, have you spoken to a priest about your concerns? If not, I would respectfully suggest that you do that as soon as possible.
I think a good rule of thumb is that if it would be considered immodest anywhere outside the West it is immodest, and if it would be considered immodest in most places in 1900 it is immodest.
While you're at it, it might be worth your while to ask the priest whether he agrees with you about that.
 
You ask for one “conclusion” in particular. Well, then, here is one key point, though I don’t think I would call it a “conclusion”. It’s more like a starting point.

Let me phrase it in the form of a question, since I don’t want to jump to conclusions about the apparent implications of any of your statements.

A certain man named Jim considers himself, and is considered by others, to be a Catholic in good standing. He attends Mass regularly and goes to confession regularly. One sunny morning he takes his wife and kids to the beach. Wihile they’re walking along the sand looking for a suitable place to sit, one family member points and says, “What a pretty girl!” He looks, and he agrees that the young bikini-clad woman is indeed singularly attractive.

Now the question is this. In your view, has Jim committed a sin? If so, how serious is his sin? Mortal or venial? Does he need to mentiion it, or to least to allude to it, the next time he goes to confession? If so, in what terms?
 
Just going to the beach is a mortal sin, 95% chance because it is an unnecessary proximate occasion of sin for Jim, but even if it isn't, he is still guilty of the mortal sin of scandal both by encouraging his family to go there and of any bystanders who would assume Jim is like 95% of men but simply doesn't care about the occasion of sin or being lustful at all. Unless Jim is asexual, looking at the woman would be a mortal sin because it is a free proximate occasion of sin, but I think for the vast majority of men it would be incredibly difficult to not consent to some venereal pleasure even for a second, which of course is a mortal sin.
 
"The Pope's pronouncements make no distinctions for various types of garments. Pius XII states "...an unworthy, an indecent mode of dress has prevailed" without any distinction of place, "on beaches, in country resorts, on the streets, etc." (Aug. 29. 1954) His quotation: "Vice necessarily follows upon public nudity," applies as well to the beaches, or the streets, or resorts, or elsewhere.

Cardinal Pla y Daniel, Archbishop of Toledo, Spain, stated in 1959: "A special danger to morals is represented by public bathing at beaches... Mixed bathing between men and women, which is nearly always a proximate occasion of sin and a scandal, must be avoided.""
(I'm not endorsing this website, but these are just quotes)
 
What answer would you give to my last question? How should Jim word his confession? For example, “A sin against chastity.” Would that be enough?
 
No, that would be by genus, you have to confess grave sins by species. Please consult with a priest about how you actually need to confess sins, but I think he could say "I entered an unnecessary proximate occasion of sin one time for X hours and encouraged my family to do likewise and I did one impure look which also scandalized my family and anyone in earshot because someone in my family urged me to look at that person and I commented on them."
 
No, that would be by genus, you have to confess grave sins by species. Please consult with a priest about how you actually need to confess sins, but I think he could say "I entered an unnecessary proximate occasion of sin one time for X hours and encouraged my family to do likewise and I did one impure look which also scandalized my family and anyone in earshot because someone in my family urged me to look at that person and I commented on them."

Please find a priest loyal to the magisterium, and ask him whether it is necessary to confess in this fashion. Also describe to him how you feel the need to make a six-hour confession that is so long it would have to be written out into a very lengthy document, when other people don't feel the need to do so. One other thing you might do (and I strongly advise against self-diagnosis in such matters, you need that priest to guide you), is to ask yourself the question "if my way of thinking is not scrupulosity, then what exactly would constitute scrupulosity?". There is also the very real danger of thinking "I'm the only person in the world who is right about moral matters, nobody else in the Church thinks correctly". Not saying that you are doing this, but the danger is there. Ask yourself "who in the Church would agree with me?". Just a thought.

I will, however, for lack of a better way to put it, "take your side" on one thing, at least up to a point. Contemporary women's beachwear is indeed a controversial topic among more serious Catholics, and opinions vary. In past times it would have been considered to be basically nudity. Our society has become so desensitized to such things, that few people give it a second thought, but religious groups more concerned with traditional concepts of modesty (Muslims, Orthodox Jews who keep tznius standards of modesty, some fundamentalist Christians) have adopted very demure swimsuits for women, and in the case of tznius fashion, they are not unattractive outfits, so a woman going to the beach doesn't have to look dowdy or frumpy as though she's living in the 19th century. If you want to adhere in your sensibilities to such standards, I can't say that you're wrong, just that your thoughts tend towards the more conservative end of the spectrum. If you discern that going to a mixed beach would be an occasion of sin for you, don't go. Nobody has to go to a beach.

EDITED TO ADD: What I mean to say here...

In past times it would have been considered to be basically nudity. Our society has become so desensitized to such things, that few people give it a second thought...

...is that, for good or for ill, such things as a two-piece women's swimsuit, something that makes certain aspects of the female anatomy very obvious, is no longer considered per se immodest or sexually arousing by the vast majority of people, and our society has come to take the same attitude towards such beachwear, as some indigenous peoples throughout the world take to bared breasts and loincloths. Add to this, and there's no delicate way to put this, but not all women look particularly fetching in such beachwear. Moreover (and some of this is just my own tastes), the simple, winsome, unadorned, well-toned beauty of (let's say) women in the 1970s and 1980s --- for a man of my age cohort (mid-sixties), Farrah Fawcett and Cheryl Tiegs come immediately to mind --- has been replaced by all this business of exaggerated features (lip fillers and so on), tattoos, bizarre hair colors, and the like, and the end result is kind of cartoonish and even grotesque. Long story short, standards of beauty have become kind of primitive (that's the only word I can think of), and society at large has become numb to what in earlier times would have been considered horribly immodest. If such displays cause problems for any individual male, all I can say, is to stay away from places such as mixed-bathing venues.
 
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Which conclusion in particular do you think is scrupulous?
First, scruples are a manifestation of anxiety. For several years I dealt with anxiety sufferers on a daily basis on several cancer forums in which I participate. From this experience and three decades of interaction with mental health consumers of all diagnoses, I know that anxiety can stand out like the proverbial sore thumb.
In your case, it strikes me that you might be seeing sin in virtually every human action and experience. In my view, your online research demonstrates a certain occupation or obsession or unreasonable fear of with lust or other impurity. Is God really such a cruel taskmaster that He places us among innumerable temptations with no escape or relief? Does He make life miserable for us? No!
The fruits of anxiety are doubt. Doubt about good and evil. Doubt about one's moral state. Doubt about safety and security. Doubt about virtually all aspects of human life. Anxiety, if uncontrolled, can be crippling. Famously, Martin Luther was essentially crippled by anxiety.
Anxiety is not a virus which overcomes you suddenly. Its onset is gradual, like a spiritual cancer. When symptoms appear, it is time to make inquiry. You risk nothing by asking your loved ones if they believe you are anxious. They will be truthful with you, as they love you. Your priest will also be frank and truthful with you.
 
No, that would be by genus, you have to confess grave sins by species. Please consult with a priest about how you actually need to confess sins, but I think he could say "I entered an unnecessary proximate occasion of sin one time for X hours and encouraged my family to do likewise and I did one impure look which also scandalized my family and anyone in earshot because someone in my family urged me to look at that person and I commented on them."
@xqr768, please forgive me for saying it, but I think this conversation has now gone on long enough. For your own sake, please arrange to speak to a priest as soon as possible. Tell him what you just told me in your last post, about what “Jim” should say in his confession, and ask him to kindly give you his own assessment of your recommendation.

May God bless all your endeavors!

Kind regards
Bart
 
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