Should I stay with an unrepentant vow-breaking husband?

[L2P2]

My sympathies to the OP, what a drag. In an abstract, theological sense, Rascaulking has a point about sexual sins, why they are not so different from other kinds, and why they do not mean someone’s character is radically different. But that cannot be how the OP feels right now.

There is a great book that deals directly with infidelity in the context of committment to marriage. It’s by a practicing Catholic, Wm Doherty, who is also a psychologist at the U of Minnesota, title is Take Back Your Marriage. You can see a description of the book here.

I really recommend the book. It’s both smart and faithful.

 

[Bluegoat]

It must either be my age (28) or the fact that I have very few Catholic friends. But all my married friends, their husbands go to strip clubs. So I expect that my future husband would partake in it as well. It is kind of look away and ignore it kind of thing. My best friend (who is Catholic) said “at least he comes home to me”.

Well, I think there are many reasons people shouldn’t go to strip clubs. More than being aroused by other women I think they are exploitative in many ways, including employing women who are in difficult circumstances. That being said, it also isn’t something that would actually bother me emotionally with regard to my own spouse. In the days before he was a Christian, I know my dh occasionally went to such places with his army buddies - since I was an army buddy I was there too. ( Since I did actually know better I would consider that I was more culpable for being a dork.)

Lap dances seem much more personal though, than just going. And I would also agree that there are lots of men who have never frequented such places, and more who don’t since they have grown up.

 

[e3342]

That’s what I thought you’d say. I was only saying what I did because of his likening what he did to porn. Neither one is ok. If he did use it, he kept it a secret because you wouldn’t have tolerated it. It is infidelity.
This certainly is a good reason why you will need time to forgive him. It is hard enough to forgive my husband who knew and knows he was wrong. I can’t imagine how much harder it would be if he didn’t.
There are many issues here. If he was willing to attend counseling, (I think) you should encourage that. Counseling is not a quick fix. Recovering from this will not be fast. If you remove him from the counseling, it will not help him see the truth of the damage he has done. What does your counselor say about all of this?

Our counselor is Jewish, but he counsels in a secular way. That is why he could not take sides. He said he must take my husband’s explanations at face value. If he thinks it is not wrong, then no one can force their values on him. (I mentioned that I didn’t think God would go for that when my husband stands in judgment.) However, at one point, the counselor made a comment about a governor who was in the news who cheated on his wife by having an affair. Our counselor off-handedly said, “Well everyone knows that what he did is considered wrong.” At that point I said, the only difference other than emotional investment, between what the governor did and what my husband did is simply a piece of denim. (My husband’s jeans) Why is one so obviously wrong, but not the other?

 

[Bluegoat]

Our counselor is Jewish, but he counsels in a secular way. That is why he could not take sides. He said he must take my husband’s explanations at face value. If he thinks it is not wrong, then no one can force their values on him. (I mentioned that I didn’t think God would go for that when my husband stands in judgment.) However, at one point, the counselor made a comment about a governor who was in the news who cheated on his wife by having an affair. Our counselor off-handedly said, “Well everyone knows that what he did is considered wrong.” At that point I said, the only difference other than emotional investment, between what the governor did and what my husband did is simply a piece of denim. (My husband’s jeans) Why is one so obviously wrong, but not the other?

Well, some might think it was totally different, though I think that is a stretch - though I would also say it is not entirely the same (and that it is better in some ways and worse in others.) From the counselor’s perspective, it is not useful for him to judge your husband’s behavior. It would make it impossible to help your husband.

From the POV of a secular counselor he needs to work with the value system your husband comes with. Now, that can be tricky, because your husband may actually be fooling himself about his own values and behavior. The counselor may be well aware of this and likely deals with it a lot, and it can often cause all kinds of problems for individuals - stress, feelings of disconnect or life not working out, etc. apart from how it affects others in their lives. Part of the counselors job is to get the individual to think more clearly about his own beliefs and actions so he can behave in a way that he will feel better about.

But outright confronting people with their inconsistencies is often not useful - especially if they are more emotional or practical in the way they relate to the world, which is mostly a matter of personality. (And I think plenty of men are more emotional than rational.) I suspect pointing out the bad behavior of the public figure was a way to get your husband thinking concretely about his own behavior and values.

As for what his values SHOULD be - obviously we all have to make the final decision about that as individuals. As a Catholic your husband would be best to speak to a spiritual advisor to deal with that aspect of things. The role of the spiritual advisor is complementory to that of the counselor.

 

[L2P2]

Our counselor is Jewish, but he counsels in a secular way. That is why he could not take sides. He said he must take my husband’s explanations at face value. If he thinks it is not wrong, then no one can force their values on him.?

 

[dashso40]

People can change…give him a chance…We all make mistakes

 

[L2P2]

Our counselor is Jewish, but he counsels in a secular way. That is why he could not take sides. He said he must take my husband’s explanations at face value. If he thinks it is not wrong, then no one can force their values on him.?

Find a new counselor who supports your understanding of moral values. It takes a little digging, but it is far from impossible. Interview a potential counselor by phone before paying to talk to him/her. If you are in a major metro area in the U.S., look for a counselor who is a Roman Catholic or an orthodox Jew as the latter will tend to be in rough agreement with Catholic values but not so close you get into controversies over minor particulars of faith. We have gotten great help from a therapist who is an orthodox Jew, and it made the difference between my thinking therapy was either a waste of time or detrimental and finding that it really HELPED.

BTW, there are secular marriage counselors who come down really hard on porn, Hooters, etc. Your counselor sounds like he’s stuck in the 1960s.

Good luck.

 

[tweetymom]

However, I am now stuck with a marriage to a guy with a huge character defect that I didn’t realize existed. I am finding it hard to go on with our marriage. We are in counseling. What should I do?

---

Of course, you have no huge character defects at all, now do you?

My My isn’t that great coming from a Bishop? HMMMM:bigyikes:

 

[onmyknees]

What kind of man her husband is? With all due respect, because the man went to a strip club and got a few lap dances does not mean the man is a changed/disturbed/distrustful/evil man. It is NOT right behavior, and I am not justifying it by any means, but let’s get a grip on here. He’s in counseling, he’s giving his marriage a shot…he’s a sinner, like you and I.

I’m a bachelor who does not frequent those kind of clubs. I’m (duh) celibate, and don’t have a dog in the fight, but I really have never understood why all of a sudden, if a man or woman has an affair, it casts there all aspects of their character in a different Why are sexual sins considered the worst?

Sorry to rant a bit. I mean no disrespect.

Rascalking, When you are in a commited marriage, the couple has made vows before God to remain faithful to his or her spouse until death do us part. To commit adultery, which is what her husband did, is one of the gravest sins. It is a great injustice to the spouse. In fact the priest on EWTN said that in the case of adultery/infidelity the spouse has every right to separate indefinitely from his/her spouse. They do need to forgive when they are able but forgiveness does not mean that you can forget or stop hurting. Forgiveness is an act of your will. Sexual sins are worse when they do injustice to another person or persons. Try to imagine that you have a wife for many years and you suddenly find out from her that she had and performed lap dances on men in strip clubs. She said she was sorry but that she didn’t think there was anything wrong with it? I do agree that the op’s spouse did change and he betrayed her trust. Until he is willing to sincerely apologize by admitting that what he did was very very wrong, not only in Gods eyes, but that he also betrayed his wife, broke their marriage vows and caused a hurt that may never be healed. Trust is not easy to get back.

 

[joandarc2008]

It sounds like the counselor is doing the right thing. He cannot take sides for this to work. He has to take the side of the marriage and not the individuals in it. You may do well to request that he also counsels you BOTH individually as well as together so you can make your points without adding fuel to the fire. This has helped my dh and I with our secular counselor. I let our Priest talk to him about values. Those were the two conditions for letting him come home. Get thee back to Church and Get thou back to Counseling both individual and together.

 

[ExDeoVita]

I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

We’re all part of fallen humanity, and people of character make mistakes, including sometimes lying, cheating , etc. It very well might be a violation of trust, but it can be rebuilt, and forgiven. Also, there is a huge difference between a lap dance and an affair. Both are wrong, but they are not morally equivalent.

Like I said, I see your point, but I respectfully disagree with it.

I too am a bachelor, and although I don’t ‘have a dog in the race’ I can say that I would be emotionally crushed had my wife done something like that. If marriage were a utilitarian union where acts like that weren’t supposed to bother spouses than I wouldn’t even consider it. Bright side is, marriage is much more than that, and the vows given are serious. The one flesh union is not symbolic, its real and when those vows are belittled/ that one flesh union scarred it should harm the spouses that take those things seriously. For a spouse to feel no hurt would be cause for concern (in my opinion). I can’t say I would move towards divorce, but that does not negate the hurt done. The forgiveness of sins in the confessional is instantaneous, the healing and re-establishment of trust between spouses takes time.

 

[Rascalking]

I too am a bachelor, and although I don’t ‘have a dog in the race’ I can say that I would be emotionally crushed had my wife done something like that. If marriage were a utilitarian union where acts like that weren’t supposed to bother spouses than I wouldn’t even consider it. Bright side is, marriage is much more than that, and the vows given are serious. The one flesh union is not symbolic, its real and when those vows are belittled/ that one flesh union scarred it should harm the spouses that take those things seriously. For a spouse to feel no hurt would be cause for concern (in my opinion). I can’t say I would move towards divorce, but that does not negate the hurt done. The forgiveness of sins in the confessional is instantaneous, the healing and re-establishment of trust between spouses takes time.

I never said I wouldn’t be emotionally devastated/crushed/hurt or the like by having that happen to me. I know I would be a wreck.

I agree with most of what you said, but it still doesn’t take away from what I said. Getting lap dances from strippers is a huge difference than having an in depth emotional and physical affair with someone. Notice also that I said both are wrong.

I don’t think that either warrant the ending of a 30 year marriage. Serial adulters (such as several long term in depth and physical and emotional affairs) do deserved to be divorced, but, once again, there is a night and day difference between them.

 

[jwashu]

Stay in counseling- but I would ask strongly for honesty and that he be tested for all STDs before you resume sexual relations. You need to be protect yourself from the many things out there especially the ones that can kill you like HIV or Hep C. Repentance doesn’t mean SAYING I’m sorry - It means SHOWING it.

You can’t get an STD from a lap dance…

And I’m sorry it was a lap dance… while that is definitely bordering on adultery (and truly it might qualify) he seems repentent and I’m with the others, I highly doubt the problem was caused by the lap dances.

You have been married for 30 years and this is difficult but it’s definitely different than an emotional / physical affair with someone. I’m not saying it’s not serious in my opinion, I do know many people who wouldn’t think it was a big deal - I had a friend who his wife got him a lap dance once while she was there (no they aren’t Catholic).

More importantly, if you guys are both going to counseling and want to work it out I don’t see why you couldn’t unless you don’t want to work it out for some reason other than this.

Joe

 

[RachelKH]

He admitted it only because he had to explain his bent appearance – he isn’t repentant really and would have gone on doing this probably except for the problem and it coming out. What else is he doing that he hasn’t admitted? Yes, insist on the testing. He has shown he is not trustworthy or on the same page in his maturity and understanding of love and marriage.

 

[e3342]

My My isn’t that great coming from a Bishop? HMMMM:bigyikes:

Bishop?

 

[tweetymom]

Bishop?

Thays what he claimed to me:shrug:

 

[Ailina]

I never said I wouldn’t be emotionally devastated/crushed/hurt or the like by having that happen to me. I know I would be a wreck.

I agree with most of what you said, but it still doesn’t take away from what I said. Getting lap dances from strippers is a huge difference than having an in depth emotional and physical affair with someone. Notice also that I said both are wrong.

I don’t think that either warrant the ending of a 30 year marriage. Serial adulters (such as several long term in depth and physical and emotional affairs) do deserved to be divorced, but, once again, there is a night and day difference between them.

I disagree. I think lap dancing is that imaginary fine line that some immature men magically think is not true adultery, so that makes it okay. Just like Clinton used to say that oral sex was not true sex.

When you have a woman simulating sex while literally sitting in your lap, the only difference is that you have your clothes on. There is still serial cheating/lying/dishonesty happening to the marital relationship because dear hubby is not being honest and open with wifey. How much money is he stealing away from the family with this furtive “hobby”? How much time is he stealing? How much has he still not revealed, because, believe me, people in this situation never tell all if they can help it?

Her sense of trust has been broken. Her sense of fidelity, security, admiration, love as well. Who is this man she thought she knew but obviously doesn’t? Those are the thoughts that go through the head of spouses in this kind of scenario.

She can’t just blow it over. He needs to apologise and repent, not deny that any hurt has been done. Even God expects that of us. We don’t get out of jail without repenting first. We still have to live with the consequences of our actions.

 

[Ailina]

You can’t get an STD from a lap dance…

And I’m sorry it was a lap dance… while that is definitely bordering on adultery (and truly it might qualify) he seems repentent and I’m with the others, I highly doubt the problem was caused by the lap dances.

You have been married for 30 years and this is difficult but it’s definitely different than an emotional / physical affair with someone. I’m not saying it’s not serious in my opinion, I do know many people who wouldn’t think it was a big deal -** I had a friend who his wife got him a lap dance once while she was there (no they aren’t Catholic). **

More importantly, if you guys are both going to counseling and want to work it out I don’t see why you couldn’t unless you don’t want to work it out for some reason other than this.

Joe

Well, that says right there that you and your friends are quite desensitized to the effect of pornography on our culture. And people wonder why marriages are in trouble??? When such things are considered no big deal by some, then it’s hard to tell when there’s a problem, isn’t it?

 

[tweetymom]

Well, that says right there that you and your friends are quite desensitized to the effect of pornography on our culture. And people wonder why marriages are in trouble??? When such things are considered no big deal by some, then it’s hard to tell when there’s a problem, isn’t it?

I would not try to ever give anyone advice in a situation as this. I dealt with an unfaithful husband more than once in my marriage. We finally did work things out and I eventually came home because of my children, I did forgive him, but never forgot it and our marriage was never ever the way it should have been .We stayed together for 43 years until his death 12 years ago. am I sorry I stayed? Yes sometimes I am. So if you can work it out and still be in love then thats your answer. It didn’t work for me, but we are all different. God Bless you in you decision

 

[e3342]

I’ve been going back and forth, round and round with my emotions since he told me this 3 months ago. We had been going to counseling since then because initially, I kicked him out of the house. After many sessions, and with the stress of his job and the economy, things have gotten back to us living like roommates again. We had been living like this during the time he was cheating on me. I was dealing with a disease with symptoms of fatigue and pain. I have slowly been recovering. We have been sleeping in separate rooms for a few years now because his snoring and radio listening at night keeps me up. And yes, he did apologize for hurting me, and says he will not go there again, but since that has happened, I caught him in a few small lies, but lies none the less. I asked him if he thought maybe he just fell out of love with me during that time because since then, he shows virtually no affection to me. Our counselor says that there comes a time where the cheater cannot take any more grief from the spouse. At some point, you must move on. We have reached that, but my problem is, my emotions still are on a roller coaster. Like today, I am angry and hurt again. He doesn’t know I am, but he is distancing himself from me right now. We missed our last counseling session because of a job-related emergency, but I don’t think he will go back to therapy. I really don’t have much else to say to the counselor. What do you think I should do? Thanks for all your imput.