Should I strive to overcome homophobia?

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fissionu235 said:
This is what makes me sick… I totally reject that as a Gay man that I or my desires are not ordered correctly. They are ordered exactly the way they were intended to be. This is the #1 way that people “try” to put down gays and lesbians. Try a new argument, this is getting old. It basically says that you are better than us.:cool:
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No it doesn’t. Simple biology will tell you how we get the next generation of human beings. And simple common sense tells everyone that what is done in private should remain private. In the past, I could care less what my gay and bisexual coworkers were doing. I didn’t even form a picture in my mind. But now, it’s on the ballot, it’s all over the media, and politicians and heads of corporations are even speaking up about something called gay marriage.

Any gay person does not need my permission, or anybody else’s, to do what they want. But that’s all changed now that it’s become a very public and legal matter.

Just to make sure I 'm being clear, I don’t care if half my neighbors are gay.

Peace,
Ed
 
Peter_Plato said:
This may also be a major contributor to why people do not want to pursue ethical thinking to its appropriate end. Even if their own moral senses tell them some action is wrong, the unwillingness to appear “holier than thou” and, perhaps, even the accusations of it may be dissuasive to right moral thinking. Think about who launches the “holier than thou” accusation. It is usually someone with a moral agenda of some kind, typically in opposition to the one stated.

That is why I think the OP was quite careful about saying these were his authentic moral “feelings” and did not want to portray them as anything else.

This is an untenable moral position because it presumes to “lump in” homosexuality as a legitimate moral behavior. Let’s apply this thinking, as you say, to “any group.”

"Before you make a generalization about any group - sex addicts, murderers, thieves, child abusers, pimps, stamp collectors, politicians, lawyers…put yourself in that sentence. Think about how you would feel if others were to marginalize one of these groups if you belonged to it.

The problem with this argument is that it presumes that your presence in the group is going to nullify your moral feelings about the kind of behavior undertaken by the group, the moral rightness of that behavior and any truthful conclusions you could arrive at as a member.

I understand this is a difficult point to understand, but just my membership in a group is not what legitimizes that group. That should not be the basis upon which anything is justified morally. My being a pimp does not make pimping legitimate. To argue that others don’t know what it’s like to be a pimp and therefore they should be more tolerant of the pursuit is an appeal to egoism. Your claim is that one must have their ego embrace the behavior before they have any right to make a judgement about the behaviour. The snake, in other words, was right, Eve had to taste the fruit before she really understood the full moral implications of the act. No one else, not even God presumably, would have a right to judge her action until they, too, took a bite.

So far, the argument against the opening post has been an appeal to emotion and nothing but. Here’s how it breaks down

Qoeleth stated he has certain feelings about homosexual behavior (disgust, repulsion, etc) that he is naturally inclined to have.

Others have raised grave concern about his natural inclination of being repulsed by homosexual behavior because there do exist in the world certain individuals who have certain feelings or inclinations, attractions really, towards others of their same sex.

So, the claim is that Qoeleth is wrong because he has certain natural feelings, but that he should abandon these because others have certain other feelings, also apparently “natural,” they they should be allowed to follow. For some undisclosed reason their feelings should trump his feelings. The question Qoeleth is asking, and quite legitimately so, is why should their feelings take precedence over his? It would seem unfair to legitimize some feelings and not others, no?

More importantly, he is asking why should those particular feelings (same sex attractions) be legitimized when people are inclined to have all kinds of “feelings” about things that lead to morally questionable practices. Feelings or attractions are not the best indicators of right conduct precisely because they lead, frequently without thought or reason, to nasty consequences.

The ultimate moral question in dispute here is, “Why should these feelings of same sex attraction be legitimized when many ostensibly equal and even more commonly experienced feelings are not?”

Most people are inclined to have feelings of anger or hate towards others and most of us have been in “this group” many times in our lives. Why is it not legitimate to give into these feelings and carry out what we are feeling? It would appear that “just feeling” something is not sufficient to give a mode of behavior moral approval, nor should it be when it comes to feelings of same sex attraction. Yet that would seem to be the only point being made in support of the position.

Aristotle had it fundamentally right when he claimed that emotions should be ordered to properly reasoned ends. It seems to me that Queleth has properly ordered emotions because they are in line with the appropriate ends of sexual capacity. Others are arguing he should disorder his emotions and align them instead because of claims that no proper ends exist when it comes to sex. This group, fundamentally, is proposing that sex has no purpose except to be gratified. These people need to read Nichomachean Ethics to gain a different perspective, one not grounded on impulse.

I am still waiting for someone to properly address the amorous alien problem in post #18 and explain why sexual relations with this alien would be any more wrong that with another person of the same sex?
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This should be posted in schools. People clam they want “dialogue” and understanding. Yet, note the response you have received so far to this post. People say Catholics do not “think for themselves”, yet here we have very reasoned thinking and the replies are nothing but emotion. What does that tell us?
 
Peter_Plato said:
This may also be a major contributor to why people do not want to pursue ethical thinking to its appropriate end. Even if their own moral senses tell them some action is wrong, the unwillingness to appear “holier than thou” and, perhaps, even the accusations of it may be dissuasive to right moral thinking. Think about who launches the “holier than thou” accusation. It is usually someone with a moral agenda of some kind, typically in opposition to the one stated.

That is why I think the OP was quite careful about saying these were his authentic moral “feelings” and did not want to portray them as anything else.
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See, I was saying nothing about actions. I was talking about people. People think that they are better than other people. Some hate people, like me, who have same sex attraction even if they don’t know if we are acting on it, or even if they know we aren’t acting on it. I have said to hate the sin, love the sinner, but you fail to recognize that and make me say what you want because you want to fight anyone who may appear to justify homosexual action. Saying that someone should not hate a whole group of people based on something they can’t control (attractions) instead of hating the action that some (NOT ALL) commit. We are called to love those even in sexual sin. Just like Christ loved the prostitute. It is fine to tell them their actions are wrong (as long as the truth is brought with love).

It is wrong to hate homosexuals as a group. Not all who have same sex attraction act on it. Those of us with same sex attraction are as diverse as heterosexuals. Some heterosexuals have premarital and extra-marital sex. Actually most adult heterosexuals I know do these things. That doesn’t mean one should hate the whole group just because there is sexual sin among them. I think that many choose not to see this point. As I have said multiple times by now, hate the sin, love the sinner. That is the Christian thing to do.
 
Please other posters, stop saying that I am somehow saying homosexual actions are okay. I have never said that, so please stop saying or implying I did. I have said numerous times that homosexual feelings can’t be controlled (so they aren’t sinful), but they can control whether or not they act on these feelings (if they do act on those feelings, those actions are sinful). I am saying hatred for a whole group of people for something they can’t control (physical attraction), is wrong.

So again I am NOT saying homosexual actions are okay. So stop making it sound like I did. If you are confused about my position please read ALL of my posts not just part of one post.
 
Metropolis said:
I said it was a major contributor, not the only one. Also using logic and experience can lead you to that conclusion. To put others down, you have to put yourself above. To hate a whole group of people for something they can’t control, you have to see yourself as better than their group. I think that the Church would agree that self-righteousness is a bad thing. I in no way said homosexual activity is okay, but people with same sex attractions can’t control their attractions, they can only control what they do with it. I actually know alot about that because I am a chaste and happily married bisexual.

The OP is prejudice against all homosexuals just because of a few bad experiences with some. That is wrong. I don’t hate all heterosexuals even though I have plenty of bad experiences with them. I am able to understand that their sexual attractions have nothing to do with them mistreating me. Heck I even married a heterosexual.

p.s. Your link has nothing to do with what I was saying. I certainly was not condoning homosexual activity, which you would have seen if you read my former posts and certainly not condoning homosexual unions. So I am not sure why you would think that your link was somehow pertinent to what I was saying.
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The topic is homophobia which describes a mental state that is not recognized by health care professionals as actually existing. One person’s experiences and feelings towards gay (LGBT) persons is not a reason to accuse all people of hate.

The link was pertinent because the Church is telling Catholics to not hate homosexual persons, and I see what the Church has to say as (A) being labeled as hate, and (B) using various wordings, homosexual persons post here that there is nothing wrong with being gay and acting out gay behavior. I’ve known gay people and treated them like everybody else, provided that whatever they did in private remained private. Now, the issue of homosexuality has gone in your face public, is on state ballots, and so on.

Based on my reading of various LGBT web sites and publications, the prevailing attitude is that people HATE homosexuals. Now that’s great for mobilizing the troops and creating and strengthening the us vs. them attitude. In fact, after same-sex marriage was voted down in Michigan, a letter appeared in one of the Detroit newspapers that called “MIchigan. The great hate state.” Little 8 year old Bobby hates gays? 80 year old women in nursing homes hate gays?

But crying hate all the time is just like a coach inspiring his team before a football game: “Remember, they all hate you.” I don’t hate anybody. Sure, I get angry with people sometimes but that’s it.

I get Same-Sex Attraction, but today, right now, it’s in everybody’s face that gay marriage is job one. Why did you get married? To remain celibate?

Again, that’s why I put the link to Church teaching so people can see that I’m not offering a personal opinion based on nothing but my own point of view. Any attempt to make this a “I’m better than you” argument fails to take into account that gay sex, not SSA, is the issue. That gays are being encouraged to engage in gay sexual acts. That’s it’s normal or ‘I can’t control myself.’

Just like straights who apparently have been brainwashed to believe ‘I can’t control myself’ and are getting the 24/7 message that getting as many orgasms as possible is the be all and end all. It’s not. It never was.

I was there in the late 1960s when the Hippies made it a point to spread their bad example of living to other people, including me. To ignore - above all - any authority figure, especially the Church. I learned from my Hippie friend that marriage didn’t matter, that sex with whoever was ‘performing natural acts’ and using illegal drugs was cool. But sex and drugs, and literally yelling “We’ll live how we want!!! Leave us alone!!! We’re grown adults!!!” when their parents would call and ask them, “If you love the girl, why don’t you marry her instead of living in sin?” was what they were taught.

So the big lie continues. Sex is the opiate of the masses, gay or straight. So no, this is not just about gay people, this is about open displays in public that gay sex should be marriage and that I should walk around in women’s clothes and a wig if I want to. And yes, I’ve seen men in dresses and men wearing ladies’ high heels and short shorts in public.

When parents began to have no say in “alternative lifestyles” and people purposely severed their ties with the Church and the traditions they were taught and grew up with, we have gotten to here. It’s not about ‘I’m better than you,’ it’s about what biology and normative behavior teach us. Some choose to ignore that and they can ignore it, but the moment it turns into “do you think you’re better than me?” and normative gets radically redefined, I think it’s fine for others to say that in the history of this country, certain behaviors we’re seeing from both straights and gays are non-normative and there is plenty of evidence to show that it is harming families and the very fabric of what it means to be human, especially as regards proper, biological sexual behavior, and social behavior with people in general.

Straights being portrayed in the media as having dog sex as being normative - I HATE that. It is the worst possible message to send to people. That sex is like going to the bathroom and then you walk away. So no, this is not just about gay people either.

“I’m better than you” should be - “this is normative and this is not for gays and straights.” If we can’t agree on that then the “family” becomes meaningless, and it becomes a solely utilitarian concept.

Peace,
Ed
 
Ed,

The problem is that the OP uses these feelings to stereotype people and they pre-judge them before even knowing them. She discounts them as a person and chooses to see them as a bad or mean person before seeing how their actions actually play out. That is acting on their feelings. Just like it is wrong to act on homosexual feelings this is wrong too.

The problem with your link is it had NOTHING to do with what I say. I am in no way saying gay marriage is fine, or even that gay relationships/actions are fine. Why are you preaching to the choir? I think you were trying to say that I was somehow giving my stamp of approval on these activities which I clearly do NOT.

Okay, why are you talking about these publications to me? I am not publishing these things and they have NOTHING to do with whether it is okay to have a hate, loathing, or dislike for an entire group of people regardless of whether they act on their inclinations or not.

If you are asking why I got married, it is because my husband and I fell in love and felt called to marriage and the Church was fine with marrying us even though the priest knew I am a bisexual living chastely. If the Church says it is okay for me to marry, I trust them. I am not celibate, because , oh yeah , I am attracted to men as well so there is no problem in the sexual department.

You keep on accusing me of saying that homosexual act are fine, but that is not the case. I live with SSA every single day and still I am loyal to my husband and chaste. The OP admitted that they had a poor view of all homosexuals, not just those who act on it. So yes, this is about SSA and not just homosexual acts. I have said numerous times too they can control what they do with their actions so stop acting like I am saying something contrary to that. Just like a straight person can choose not to have sex outside of marriage, a gay, or bi person can choose not to act on their same sex attraction.

I am not sure why you keep on saying half the stuff you say to me because I am not condoning homosexual acts, I am not a hippie, I am not a “you have no control over your sexual actions” kind of person. Stop acting like I am. I choose to only have a heterosexual relationship with my husband despite my other sexual urges.

I have seen cross-dressers in public too. I have lived in big cities all my life. I have seen openly gay people. Still has NOTHING to do with what I am saying.

I am saying that yes many think they are better than those with SSA. You are not better than me because you are straight. I really don’t know who is, that is for God to choose. Those with SSA cannot choose their attractions and aren’t “worse” because of their attractions. Now if they act on them, that is a different story.

You keep on saying things that have nothing to do with what I am saying. Stop please. Complain about the media, the politics, the hippies, in a post not responding to me because I am NOT talking about any of those things or promoting any of those things. You are making it out like I am saying that people should just have sex with whoever and that I love the liberal media and I am somehow promoting those things. I am NOT.
 
Thank you everyone for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

I suppose it is a complex ethical question. I would not be comfortable being ‘a friend’ to a practising homosexual, because I regard their acts as disgusting, in the same way, I would not be comfortable with being a friend with a practising paedophile or bestialist.

I suppose if a person was not practising, I would not have much of a problem- unless they exhibited overt effeminate behaviours. I know there is nothing wrong with that, ethically, but I just don’t feel comfortable with it.

I do feel, those who are not practising could easily keep things to themselves. I mean, heterosexuals don’t go around announcing their preference, do they? ‘Don’t ask, don’t tell’, sounds good to me.
 
Qoeleth said:
Thank you everyone for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

I suppose it is a complex ethical question. I would not be comfortable being ‘a friend’ to a practising homosexual, because I regard their acts as disgusting, in the same way, I would not be comfortable with being a friend with a practising paedophile or bestialist.

I suppose if a person was not practising, I would not have much of a problem- unless they exhibited overt effeminate behaviours. I know there is nothing wrong with that, ethically, but I just don’t feel comfortable with it.

I do feel, those who are not practising could easily keep things to themselves. I mean, heterosexuals don’t go around announcing their preference, do they? ‘Don’t ask, don’t tell’, sounds good to me.
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There is a big difference between a pedophile, a bestialist and a homosexual/bisexual. Pedophiles and those into bestiality are sexually abusing (raping or molesting) children or animals. So big difference. Homosexual acts are wrong, but it isn’t a wrong sexual act compounded by forcibly hurting a person or animal. As a sexual abuse victim (I was as child) who is also a chaste bisexual I find it really offensive that you would compare those two things.

Just to let you know, being effeminate is not a “gay” trait it is a stereotype. Most gay people, you would never guess are gay.

Also many who are gay or bisexual don’t just tell you, “hey, guess what, I am gay/bi/ whatever.” It may come out eventually when they talk about going out that weekend with or doing something with their boyfriend or girlfriend. But that is general conversation. I have known plenty of gay people and most I didn’t find out until after knowing them a while. None have told me directly.

Now, you don’t have to be friends with anyone, you don’t have to like anyone. Chances are though, you have known way more homosexuals than you know of. The only person I have “come out” to is my husband. Others have suspected and figured out I have had attractions, but most who know me have no idea. We really are normal every-day people.
 
There are no more pedophiles. They are calling themselves “minor-attracted persons” now. They are hoping they can have some (name removed by moderator)ut in the 2013 Diagnostic and Statistical Manual and get APA approval that their behavior is normative.

Peace,
Ed
 
Qoeleth said:
Thank you everyone for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

I suppose it is a complex ethical question. I would not be comfortable being ‘a friend’ to a practising homosexual, because I regard their acts as disgusting, in the same way, I would not be comfortable with being a friend with a practising paedophile or bestialist.You really don’t think that its a problem to compare consensual sex between two adults to an adult abusing and completely destroying the life of a minor? The comparison between pedophiles and gay people is horribly offensive, both to gays and to victims of sexual abuse. Engaging in homosexual activities is far more comparable to premarital sex.

I suppose if a person was not practising, I would not have much of a problem- unless they exhibited overt effeminate behaviours. I know there is nothing wrong with that, ethically, but I just don’t feel comfortable with it.What about straight men who exhibit effeminate behaviors? Trust me, there are plenty out there.

I do feel, those who are not practising could easily keep things to themselves. I mean, heterosexuals don’t go around announcing their preference, do they? ‘Don’t ask, don’t tell’, sounds good to me. Uh…right…You don’t let anyone know your sexuality? You never mention your spouse to anyone? You don’t mention having to take a day off work because your spouse has a doctor’s appointment, or that your husband is taking you on vacation? Or if you aren’t married you never tell anyone about that great girl you met at the coffee shop and are going out with Friday night? Chances are your sexuality is on display far more often than you realize.
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I’ll make you a deal. I’m an out and proud cohabiting fornicator. Any discomfort or issue you have with homosexuals you can feel free to put on to me instead.
 
edwest2 said:
There are no more pedophiles. They are calling themselves “minor-attracted persons” now. They are hoping they can have some (name removed by moderator)ut in the 2013 Diagnostic and Statistical Manual and get APA approval that their behavior is normative.

Peace,
Ed
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I can’t believe that you, or anyone, thinks that its acceptable to compare to adults of the same sex engaging in consensual sexual activity to the abuse and exploitation of children. CHILD MOLESTATION CAN RUIN AN INNOCENT CHILD’S LIFE. Not only is that horribly offensive to gays, I would love to hear you explain to a victim of child sexual abuse how it’s totally the same as two men deciding to fool around.
 
BlueEyedLady said:
I can’t believe that you, or anyone, thinks that its acceptable to compare to adults of the same sex engaging in consensual sexual activity to the abuse and exploitation of children. CHILD MOLESTATION CAN RUIN AN INNOCENT CHILD’S LIFE. Not only is that horribly offensive to gays, I would love to hear you explain to a victim of child sexual abuse how it’s totally the same as two men deciding to fool around.
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I was only stating facts. No comparisons were being made.

Peace,
Ed
 
Metropolis said:
Ed,

The problem is that the OP uses these feelings to stereotype people and they pre-judge them before even knowing them. She discounts them as a person and chooses to see them as a bad or mean person before seeing how their actions actually play out. That is acting on their feelings. Just like it is wrong to act on homosexual feelings this is wrong too.

The problem with your link is it had NOTHING to do with what I say. I am in no way saying gay marriage is fine, or even that gay relationships/actions are fine. Why are you preaching to the choir? I think you were trying to say that I was somehow giving my stamp of approval on these activities which I clearly do NOT.

Okay, why are you talking about these publications to me? I am not publishing these things and they have NOTHING to do with whether it is okay to have a hate, loathing, or dislike for an entire group of people regardless of whether they act on their inclinations or not.

If you are asking why I got married, it is because my husband and I fell in love and felt called to marriage and the Church was fine with marrying us even though the priest knew I am a bisexual living chastely. If the Church says it is okay for me to marry, I trust them. I am not celibate, because , oh yeah , I am attracted to men as well so there is no problem in the sexual department.

You keep on accusing me of saying that homosexual act are fine, but that is not the case. I live with SSA every single day and still I am loyal to my husband and chaste. The OP admitted that they had a poor view of all homosexuals, not just those who act on it. So yes, this is about SSA and not just homosexual acts. I have said numerous times too they can control what they do with their actions so stop acting like I am saying something contrary to that. Just like a straight person can choose not to have sex outside of marriage, a gay, or bi person can choose not to act on their same sex attraction.

I am not sure why you keep on saying half the stuff you say to me because I am not condoning homosexual acts, I am not a hippie, I am not a “you have no control over your sexual actions” kind of person. Stop acting like I am. I choose to only have a heterosexual relationship with my husband despite my other sexual urges.

I have seen cross-dressers in public too. I have lived in big cities all my life. I have seen openly gay people. Still has NOTHING to do with what I am saying.

I am saying that yes many think they are better than those with SSA. You are not better than me because you are straight. I really don’t know who is, that is for God to choose. Those with SSA cannot choose their attractions and aren’t “worse” because of their attractions. Now if they act on them, that is a different story.

You keep on saying things that have nothing to do with what I am saying. Stop please. Complain about the media, the politics, the hippies, in a post not responding to me because I am NOT talking about any of those things or promoting any of those things. You are making it out like I am saying that people should just have sex with whoever and that I love the liberal media and I am somehow promoting those things. I am NOT.
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My apologies.

Sincerely,
Ed
 
BlueEyedLady said:
I’ll make you a deal. I’m an out and proud cohabiting fornicator. Any discomfort or issue you have with homosexuals you can feel free to put on to me instead.
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I suppose I am also not comfortable with co-habiting fornicators. I don’t ‘dislike’ them, but I don’t really approve- and being ‘accepting’ of them would seem to be approving. If I had to talk to co-habitors talking about their ‘partners’, I am very uncomfortable.

So, how does one show one doesn’t accept the valdity of someone’s lifestyle, without being uncharitable?
 
Qoeleth said:
I suppose I am also not comfortable with co-habiting fornicators. I don’t ‘dislike’ them, but I don’t really approve- and being ‘accepting’ of them would seem to be approving. If I had to talk to co-habitors talking about their ‘partners’, I am very uncomfortable.

So, how does one show one doesn’t accept the valdity of someone’s lifestyle, without being uncharitable?
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There is a difference between not showing approval and making it clear that you disapprove at every turn. Take for example my fiance’s mom. She does not approve of us living together. She made her feelings known to him once and has made it clear that we cannot share a bed under her roof. We know that she doesn’t approve. But for the sake of being charitable and maintaining a positive relationship with her son and soon-to-be daughter in law she has left it at that. Harping, badgering, and making it clear every time she sees us that we are committing a grave sin would not make us any more likely to stop living together, it would only get her cut out of our lives. Or at least have her contact with us greatly reduced.
 
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