Should I use the CCC or the Baltimore Cathechism?

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catholicworker1922

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I am very confused by this topic after speaking with a traditionalist Catholic for the first time. I have a few scattered questions that I am hope I am asking respectfully?
  1. Is the CCC infallible? Is the Baltimore Catechism?
  2. What does it mean that the CCC is “authoritative”? - Can a person disagree with it if there is a compelling reason to do so?
  3. What if there is a contradiction between the CCC and the Baltimore Catechism? Which opinion do you go with?
  4. What happens when there are changes to the CCC - for instance in 1997 and 2019, and possibly further? Does this mean there are errors in it? Can Catholics favor earlier publications? Can Catholics look at the CCC and believe that certain other things should be changed as well?
  5. What is a truly indisputable and infallible source of Church teaching that Catholics can quickly reference if the CCC does not carry these labels?
Thanks! I’m trying to think if there is anything else… these are all new ideas to me that kind of threw me off…
 
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Hi! I agree that we should consult as many sources as possible, but this is where it gets confusing to me. Let’s say I want to learn about the Church’s stance on the death penalty.

Baltimore states: "Human life may be lawfully taken … (3) by the lawful execution of a criminal, fairly tried and found guilty of a crime punishable by death, when the preservation of law and order and the good of the community require such execution.

CCC states: “the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person”, and she works with determination for its abolition worldwide.”

So using both does not appear to be an option. It simply must be one or the other, correct?
 
I have been told neither is infallible. Besides that I have all of the same question as you, especially the death penalty difference you mentioned. I don’t like the wording in the Boston one, but the old wording in the CCC made more sense to me. There are still places in the world (although few) and certain scenarios where a person that is a danger to others could not be detained with any confidence.
 
Depends on what you mean by traditionalist. “Some” traditionalists are frozen in time. Some believe we have had no Pope since Pius X. Some think it was Pius XII. Some merely prefer the Latin mass and eschew the Ordinary Form. They are all over the map.

As to the catechism, the understanding of God’s revealed truth and its application to our modern culture regarding faith and morals has developed as new moral questions arise. As good as it is, it is not really within the purview of the Baltimore Catechism to address cloning, for example.

The Libreria Editrice Vaticana 2000 edition of the Catechism (over seen by Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI) is the one to use, as it is current.
 
The CCC is the latest and best effort by the Church to lay down her teachings-not to mention being more exhaustive. If we trust the Church enough to appreciate any of her past catechisms, we must continue to do so now, believing that her understanding can only increase for the better, necessarily guided as she has always been by the Holy Spirit. To put it another way, if we can’t trust her now, why would we be able to before? What could’ve changed?
 
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As they are tools for teaching and education, I would use the most current version, as @po18guy said. There is merit it reading older or other versions in light of the new.
 
Both? Their purposes are different. Baltimore Catechism for the basics, and the CCC if you want to go super in-depth.
 
This was my understanding, but my question based on this conversation is: Does this mean that the Church was wrong about the death penalty before? Is there room for legitimate disagreement on this topic then? And: if not defined infallibly, but merely authentically/authoritatively, which has changed several times within the last few decades, how can we know when the Church finally “gets it right”?
 
The Catechism, the Compendiums of both the Catechism and the Social Doctrines of the Church, and for those of us in the US the US Catechism for Adults are all of the must updated reference materials for Catholics.

The Baltimore Catechism was written for the people under the ArchDiocese of Baltimore decades ago. It does contain some outdated things, as well as some timeless doctrines. It needs to be read in light of the current reference materials.

Remember, reference sources are high level. They contain footnotes that refer us to the more weighty documents, these help us determine what is Teaching, what is Doctrine, what is Dogma.
 
Where can I find the infallible statement on the position on the death penalty? The Church’s authentic magisterium appears to be either undecided on this topic or changing. That is why I am curious, if the CCC and the Baltimore Catechism are both fallible, changeable documents, where is the true teaching?
 
Mtatum1958 said:
As they are tools for teaching and education, I would use the most current version, as @po18guy said. There is merit it reading older or other versions in light of the new.
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This assumes the they are the same text for the same purpose, just one is a later addition than the other. They are really two different animals. The Roman Catechism (Catechism of Trent) is yet another. That Catechism was a universal resource designed as a reference for priests preaching sermons. The Baltimore Catechism is a local (USA) resource for the catechesis of children and other neophytes. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a universal resource designed as an all encompassing database by which bishops could design local, more simplified Catechisms (although it has become popular with all Catholics as a reference).

Even when they are for similar purposes, one may be favored over the other for various reasons. For example, when asked if the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (a simplified version of the CCC in Q&A format) made the Catechism of St. Pius X (a basic catechism designed for the laity) obsolete, Cardinal Ratzinger replied:
Q: Speaking of St. Pius X’s catechism, which continues to have sympathizers, will the publication of the compendium mean that it is definitively exceeded?

Cardinal Ratzinger: The faith, as such, is always the same. Therefore, St. Pius X’s catechism always retains its value. However, the way of transmitting the contents of the faith can change.

Consequently, one can ask if St. Pius X’s catechism can in this respect be regarded as still valid today. I think that the compendium we are preparing can respond better to today’s needs. But this does not exclude the fact that there can be persons or groups that feel more comfortable with St. Pius X’s catechism.

It should not be forgotten that that Catechism stemmed from a text that was prepared by the Pope himself [Pius X] when he was bishop of Mantua. The text was the fruit of the personal catechetical experience of Giuseppe Sarto, whose characteristics were simplicity of exposition and depth of content. Also because of this, St. Pius X’s catechism might have friends in the future. But this does not make our work superfluous.
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catholicworker1922 said:
This was my understanding, but my question based on this conversation is: Does this mean that the Church was wrong about the death penalty before? Is there room for legitimate disagreement on this topic then? And: if not defined infallibly, but merely authentically/authoritatively, which has changed several times within the last few decades, how can we know when the Church finally “gets it right”?
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This is why doubt is a virtue, a form of humility.
 
There do not exist infallible statements made on every political topic, but only on a few points of theology, to my knowledge.
 
The situation varies in each nation or culture. I doubt that, for example, the South Sudan has a computerized, state-of-the-art detention facility. So, if escapes are relatively easy, how to preotect innocent human life from that which is clearly guilty and malicious?

In the west, it is different, and calling the death penalty (like it involves any of us) inadmissible may potentially be short-sighted.

May be, I said.
 
I understand, but that is not what I intended to say. I see both (and others) as useful resources, but not to be compared to one another.
Thank you.
 
fhansen said:
To put it another way, if we can’t trust her now, why would we be able to before? What could’ve changed?
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This is not my argument, but the person I spoke to. The reason we could trust it before but we can have doubts now is because the ordinary and universal magisterium is infallible when it teaches what has always bee taught. When the Baltimore Catechism stated that the death penalty was permissible, that was the exact line that had been said by the Church for all of history until that time. When the current Catechism states the death penalty is NOT permissible, that is something new. Therefore the former position is infallible and the latter is not.

What would my response to this be?
 
In the Apostolic Exhortation Fidei Depositum , Pope St. John Paul II declared:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved June 25th last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be the sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion.
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The truth of the Catholic faith is forever, but our understanding of the fullness of truth has developed since the time of Christ and will continue to do so as the Holy Spirit guides us through the Magisterium, our true guide and arbiter on matters of faith and morals. All present Church teachings must be understood in continuity with those of the past, not with suspicion of error or rupture.

For an explanation of the most recent development on the Church teaching of the death penalty, read the letter to the Bishops written by Cardinal Ladaria, the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, who states that the “new revision affirms that the understanding of the inadmissibility of the death penalty grew ‘in the light of the Gospel’” and “expresses an authentic development of doctrine that is not in contradiction with the prior teachings of the Magisterium.”
 
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