Should I use the CCC or the Baltimore Cathechism?

[1ke]

Where can I find the infallible statement on the position on the death penalty?

There isn’t one.

 

[po18guy]

To answer the OP’s question: The CCC is the current official catechism of the Church and is authoritative. It’s the one you should be using right now today in 2019.

Could you try to be a little more clear on this?

You are, of course, absolutely right. Traditionalists “risk” falling into factionalism - if they have not already. Such sectarian factionalism is not in accord with being Christian. Saint Paul didn’t think much of it either.

 

[1ke]

I don’t want to use the wrong thing.

The BC is outdated in many ways, so in order to not confuse yourself i suggest using the US Adult Catechism or the Compendium which is in Q&A format like the old BC.

The BC was also written for CHILDREN specifically for religious education through the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine (CCD). This is one reason it lacks nuance and sophisticated discussions as the CCC contains.

 

[Lysander]

Using a broad brush with " traditionist". Many people reference both. My problem is that times change therefor teaching changes. That can lead to the church to a bad path.

 

[po18guy]

Au contraire! Look at the qualifiers in my posts. Read my descriptions.

 

[Vico]

…

There are some updates in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (Second Edition) since the later Baltimore Catechism versions were revised, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church (Second Edition) version is designed as the resource to use in making other catechisms. Also there are two other later Catholic Catechisms: YouCat and the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

In the 1940s the Baltimore Catechism No. 0 was divided for First Communion as published by the Confraternity for Christian Doctrine (CCD).
Baltimore Catechism No. 1 grades 4-7
Baltimore Catechism No. 2 contains the No. 1 questions plus more, grades 6-9
Baltimore Catechism No. 3 has additional questions, for those who have received their Confirmation or for high school age.
Baltimore Catechism No. 4 - the Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism (teachers resource for 1 & 2)

 

[HomeschoolDad]

What is a truly indisputable and infallible source of Church teaching that Catholics can quickly reference if the CCC does not carry these labels?

Denzinger’s Enchiridion Symbolorum and Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma come close. Neither is infallible, but they do contain infallible doctrines and dogmas.

A good work on Catholic moral theology, but by no means the only one, is Jone’s Moral Theology. The main problem with Jone’s work is that it does not list various opinions held by moral theologians, but only the consensus or the more probable opinion, without references. It is intended to be a manual for confessors, but not just for confessors. Some have also objected to a problematical passage where Jone gives an unusual, and possibly incorrect, definition of — please forgive me — perfect versus imperfect sodomy.

http://patristica.net/denzinger/

https://archive.org/details/fundamentalsofcatholicdogmaottludwigbastiblejames72621/page/n5

Unfortunately, Jone is not available online. Some disciplines (fasting, etc.) are pre-Vatican II and have been updated.

 

[Lysander]

I did you said “if they haven’t already”

 

[po18guy]

“IF” Gets lost in the translation, huh?

If the OP or anyone wants a good condensed catechism, any of the versions by Servant of God Fr. John Hardon, S.J. would be excellent.

 

[Lysander]

So the problem with using “if” is its a weasel word. Someone points the negative us one can flip to the positive use. That with the use of " traditionist" without a qualifier makes a broad brush. Are you referring to a Novos Ordo Mass traditionist (some would call them Pope Emetius Benidict 16), or FSSP, SSPX or some Sedevacantist movement. If its the last group yes they are very much in a position of going to formal schism or even Heresy.

Now on Catechism I would point out that they are reference material and different catechism will use different methods to get the info across. So no catechism can/could replace other catholic work.

 

[po18guy]

Start a thread and we’ll see who is suspended first!

Life’s too short. I do not want to be a near occasion of sin.

I’m out.

 

[BartholomewB]

Let’s say I want to learn about the Church’s stance on the death penalty.

Baltimore states: "Human life may be lawfully taken … (3) by the lawful execution of a criminal, fairly tried and found guilty of a crime punishable by death, when the preservation of law and order and the good of the community require such execution.

CCC states: “the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person”, and she works with determination for its abolition worldwide.”

So using both does not appear to be an option. It simply must be one or the other, correct?

If it’s specifically the death penalty question that you’re worried about, you may find something of interest in the long thread (over 500 comments) dealing with it at the time:

Pope revises catechism to say death penalty is 'inadmissible' Social Justice

 

[TheLittleLady]

This is not my argument, but the person I spoke to. The reason we could trust it before but we can have doubts now is because the ordinary and universal magisterium is infallible when it teaches what has always bee taught. When the Baltimore Catechism stated that the death penalty was permissible,

Some person’s personal opinion is just that.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Official CDF update linked above.

 

[Nikolaite]

1. Is the CCC infallible? Is the Baltimore Catechism?

Neither are.

1. What does it mean that the CCC is “authoritative”? - Can a person disagree with it if there is a compelling reason to do so?

The CCC is not authoritative. It is considered an authentic reference text, a backbone for bishops to draft their own catechisms, and a tool of ecclesial communion.

1. What if there is a contradiction between the CCC and the Baltimore Catechism? Which opinion do you go with?

Neither. They’re not that kind of document. You can only settle a contradiction in either text by going to an authoritative source. You can’t judge two texts of equal rank without a third of higher rank when a contradiction appears.

1. What happens when there are changes to the CCC - for instance in 1997 and 2019, and possibly further? Does this mean there are errors in it? Can Catholics favor earlier publications? Can Catholics look at the CCC and believe that certain other things should be changed as well?

Typically a new edition is published…that’s what happens. It could mean that there are errors in it; but the only way to check is by reading the reasoning behind the change. For example, a compendious document from the world’s bishops was sent to Rome after the publication of the first CCC; it highlighted errors, as well as lackings in clarity, etc. Then the original CCC was edited and reprinted in a new edition in 1997.

While you can no longer call the previous editions the CCC, per se, you can still use catechisms prior to the CCC as reference works (i.e., Roman Catechism, Baltimore Catechism, etc.).

Yes, lay catholics, priests and bishops can all look at the CCC and see the errors which remain in it.

1. What is a truly indisputable and infallible source of Church teaching that Catholics can quickly reference if the CCC does not carry these labels?

To reference the First Vatican Council: “Wherefore, by divine and catholic faith all those things are to be believed which are contained in the word of God as found in scripture and tradition, and which are proposed by the church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or in her ordinary and universal magisterium.”

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Neither. They’re not that kind of document. You can only settle a contradiction in either text by going to an authoritative source. You can’t judge two texts of equal rank without a third of higher rank when a contradiction appears.

Again, the Baltimore Catechism is not only from a past era, but it’s a regional catechism.

CCC is the current universal catechism of the Church.

The two are NOT “of equal rank” as several posters already said. As for “going to a higher source”, the CCC has the sources listed in support for every statement in it.

 

[PetraG]

Baltimore states: "Human life may be lawfully taken … (3) by the lawful execution of a criminal, fairly tried and found guilty of a crime punishable by death, when the preservation of law and order and the good of the community require such execution.

CCC states: “the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person”, and she works with determination for its abolition worldwide.”

Those are not incompatible. The reason the church says the death penalty is inadmissible is that the Church has come to the conclusion that there are vanishingly few instances in which the preservation of law and order and the good of the community require an execution. (One of those instances would be when secure incarceration is not something the state can manage to do.)

There has been a lot learned since the Baltimore Catechism was written. One of these things is that the death penalty does not have a deterrent effect on murder rates. Another is that the death penalty is not equitably handed down, but is instead given to some offenders and not others because of unjust biases or unequal access to legal defense.

So using both does not appear to be an option. It simply must be one or the other, correct?

If you investigate why the two are different, the differences do not reflect a change in doctrine. They reflect a change in discipline or a change in the circumstances and knowledge used to judge various situtations.

CCC is the current universal catechism of the Church.

Totally. The more straightforward contemporary version is not the Baltimore Catechism but the excellent Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

 

[PetraG]

Again, the Baltimore Catechism is not only from a past era, but it’s a regional catechism.

As the USCCB puts it:

1. What is a catechism? A catechism is a text which contains the fundamental Christian truths formulated in a way that facilitates their understanding. There are two categories of catechism: major and minor. A major catechism is a resource or a point of reference for the development of minor catechisms. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is an example of a major catechism. The Baltimore Catechism is an example of a minor catechism.
2. What is a “universal catechism?” A “universal catechism” is a major catechism which is intended to be a resource or point of reference for the development of national or local catechisms and catechetical materials throughout the world. Such a catechism can be termed “universal” in that its primary audience is the universal Church.
3. Is the Catechism of the Catholic Church a “universal Catechism?” Yes. Insofar as it is intended to be a resource or point of reference for the development of minor catechisms throughout the universal Church, it is a “universal catechism.” The Catechism of the Catholic Church was titled the Catechism of the Universal Church in an earlier draft, but it was never officially titled the “universal Catechism.” The Catechism is in need of what its Prologue terms “the indispensable mediation” of particular culture, age, spiritual life and social and ecclesial conditions. The Catechism is “universal,” then, because it is intended for use by the universal Church.

I think the whole FAQ page is very good:
http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te...bout-the-catechism-of-the-catholic-church.cfm

 

[Nikolaite]

Nikolaite:

Neither. They’re not that kind of document. You can only settle a contradiction in either text by going to an authoritative source. You can’t judge two texts of equal rank without a third of higher rank when a contradiction appears.

Again, the Baltimore Catechism is not only from a past era, but it’s a regional catechism.

CCC is the current universal catechism of the Church.

The two are NOT “of equal rank” as several posters already said. As for “going to a higher source”, the CCC has the sources listed in support for every statement in it.

Again, the equal ranking in “authority”, i.e., both catechisms being wholly without authority, a third authoritative source is required to settle a contradiction.

The CCC lists sources precisely because the CCC is NOT the authority.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Again, the Baltimore Catechism is not on the same level with the CCC, and nothing you’ve posted supports your opinion that it is.

Muting now as like I said, at least three posters have clearly explained this already, and this discussion is just repeating itself.