Should Latin mass be brought back?

[Walking_Home]

The celebration of the Holy Sacrifice – whether it’s in the OF/EF – enters us into the same mystery of communion. This includes all the members of the congregation in Mass . My church/congregation via the Holy Sacrifice is in communion with your church/congregation – and both our churches are in communion with each and every other church community across the world. And this mystery of communion extends beyond the church doors – to those who are unable to attend Mass (illness/hospitalization/ the home bound/nursing homes/etc).

We the people – reach our fullness in being in communion with God – and with each and every church community (OF/EF) across the world – via the Sacrament of Communion.

HOMILY OF CARDINAL WILLIAM JOSEPH LEVADA
Dedication of the Seminary Chapel
Our Lady of Guadalupe Seminary
March 3, 2010

As the new President of the “Ecclesia Dei” Commission**, I want to seize on this phrase “the mystery of your communion with us.”** The Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter has a special charism to assist the Holy Father in preserving the unity of the Church for those attached to the traditional form of the Mass through the implementation of the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum. The different rites of the Church in the East and West testify to the diversity of liturgical traditions that have grown up in and with the Church since apostolic times. Yet, as St. Paul insists, there is “one Lord, one faith, one baptism” (Eph. 4:5). This is why the Holy Father stressed the continuity that we can see between the extraordinary and ordinary forms of the Roman Rite. Whenever and wherever the Church celebrates the Eucharist, according to whatever rite or form of that rite, it is always the same “mystery of communion” that is being wonderfully manifest and accomplished. Liturgical diversity is not inconsistent with the unity of the Catholic faith. This has been clear through the centuries in the diversity of rites, East and West; and it is clear with special relevance to your priestly Fraternity in Summorum Pontificum. It is also this same principle that is operative in the new Apostolic Constitution Anglicanorum Coetibus, establishing ordinariates for former Anglicans who desire full communion with the Catholic Church while at the same time preserving some of the richness of their liturgical and spiritual patrimony.

 

[otjm]

You are trying to make a point; but the point you are trying to make you are over-blowing. there is no point in discussing what is going on in France, or the Philippines, or Nigeria, or Argentina as it has absolutely no measurable impact on the US. If you are in France (which I presume you are not), then you might be interested in growth in France. I am in the US, and most of the posters here are likewise.

Let’s get real. There are 17,233 parishes in the US. If one parish out of 10,000 of those parishes puts in an EF Mass, that is one ten-thousandth of one percent increase. if two parishes out of the total in the US add an EF, that is .000233% increase. Yes, you can say “Wow! the EF in increasing in the US!” and I can say at the same time that the increase is basically stasis.

And unless you account for the parishes that may lose the EF they already have (loss of pastor with no other pastor available; drop off of parishioners to the point where it is not sustainable), you don’t know if the EF is growing or shrinking.

You are enthusiastic, and enthusiasm is most certainly not wrong. and if the EF is to grow at all, without enthusiasm, it isn’t going to happen. But enthusiasm needs to be tempered by reality, and I have been in this discussion since SP was promulgated, and there has been a notable lack of interest in reality.

I am not in the least bit anti-EF (although I have been accused of it repeatedly when I have noted the reality of the spread of the EF); I grew up on the EF; I started seminary in college while the EF was the only Mass we had. I live about 15 to 20 minutes away from a parish that offers the EF weekly: it is at 6:45 a.m. on Saturdays. That in and of itself speaks volumes as to the demand: it is not offered on Sundays as the size of the group which desires it is very small. The parish has 6 Masses on Sunday, all OF; 3 in English; 2 in Spanish, and 1 in Vietnamese. It is patently obvious that not only is there no room for one on Sunday (priests are limited to 3 Masses per day, and then only by permission), but it also shows that a parish that large simply does not draw a group of parishioners (and others from neighboring parishes) to even begin to demand a Sunday Mass.

And that is the reality.

 

[stpurl]

And the reality can change at the drop of a hat. . .or a bomb.
I don’t like to be a Debbie Downer, but we sometimes act as if the US was the ‘only’ card in the deck, and that if things were not moving ‘there’, it didn’t matter if they were moving along just fine in Africa or Asia.

If certain people make good on threats, the US (and probably Canada, possibly Australia, Japan, Korea, some of China and Russia, and possibly outlying areas) could wind up decimated. The rest of the world. . .more or less teetering with some areas, perhaps over years, able to come back to smallish populations.

Then it might just be that the renewal of civilization will once again start in Africa and that the high incidences of the TLM and all that ‘old stuff’ will be the norm. So it might be VERY important that the EF is growing there. No doubt if the EF is more ‘the norm’ there will still be an OF but perhaps there will be more of a coming together as Pope Benedict XVI posited, where the two strengthen and enrich each other.

 

[Walking_Home]

“Black and white” thinking is not a bad thing, matter of fact that’s how the Extraordinary Magisterium works (believe this or be damned/not Catholic). And I pit the New Mass against the Tridentine Mass because one is intrinsically Catholic (and looks very beautiful) and the other doesn’t. Even you mentioned all the additions to the Novus Ordo Mass that must be added in order to make it look nice, and arguably a lot more needs to be added for it to truly become part of the Roman Rite.

---

The Latin/, the beauty/ the chant/ – and everything else that you attribute to the EF – is not going to save us. What does save us is the Holy Sacrifice and the Grace that flows and ending our life in a state of Grace. This is at the center of both the OF/EF.

 

[Duc-in-altum]

Oh my gosh! I’m laughing and crying at the same time.

 

[OraLabora]

I take extreme umbrage, and am extremely offended, by your characterization of me as someone just interested in the “smells and bells”.

I have worked hard at the restoration of chant in the Ordinary Form, as part of a Gregorian schola and as a past director and current member of the Gregorian Institute of Canada.

Moreover I became an oblate not for some superficial reasons, but to deepen my prayer life and to support my inner conversion. I am attached to a Benedictine abbey of the Solesmes Congregation who take the liturgy very seriously, and would also be offended at your characterization of the OF Mass.

Your attitude is exactly what is wrong with some self-identified “traditionalists”.

 

[otjm]

I have some serious doubts that the EF will gain strength in Africa, if for no other reason than that the vernacular is far more favored for one often overlooked reason: Latin is associated with colonialism, and anti-colonialism runs extremely strongly.

As to any blending between the EF and the OF, yes, it was something of which Pope Benedict spoke. It also helps to keep in mind the language of the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, which spoke of removing repetitive prayers and actions, and simplifying the Mass. To presume that the intent of almost all the bishops of the world will be upended might be the fervent prayer of supporters of the EF. But realistically? 2,147 votes in favor, 4 against? I really don’t think so.

One of the greatest complaints about the OF has been a lack of reverence, and that definitely started turning around with the ordinations of what has been termed the “John Paul 2 priests”, those young men inspired by that Pope; and it has continued in force with the retiring and dying off of the priests ordained pre and post Vatican 2.

 

[otjm]

To say that the OF is not intrinsically Catholic is to show a truly astounding level of ignorance of liturgy and its history.

 

[ProVobis]

To presume that the intent of almost all the bishops of the world will be upended might be the fervent prayer of supporters of the EF. But realistically? 2,147 votes in favor, 4 against? I really don’t think so.

Yes, but where did 2147 bishops approve of a New Mass? Answer is, they didn’t. But they did leave it up to liturgical committees which may have overdone things by stripping away the Psalm 42 and the Last Gospel and the old communion formula in 1965. And this was the interim Mass until the Offertory and many other silent prayers were removed. In its place Eucharistic Prayers and a Second reading were added PLUS a whole new calendar into the vernacular. I wonder how many of those 2147, many of whom had written that Latin would remain in the liturgy among other things, would have approved the reformed Mass as it was promulgated in 1970.

I have some serious doubts that the EF will gain strength in Africa, if for no other reason than that the vernacular is far more favored for one often overlooked reason: Latin is associated with colonialism, and anti-colonialism runs extremely strongly.

Maybe but I certainly hoped they appreciated the work of the Church in translating the Mass into 24 vernaculars for them in Nigeria alone.

 

[jas84173]

In my opinion the Church gave into modernism. The EF Mass is the sacred Mass that was used for 400 years. Who was complaining about it?
I’ve got absolutely no problem with the vernacular but the overall rubrics of how the mass is said should never have been touched. I own a 1962 Missale Romanum which was published in 1964 and is mostly in the vernacular except for the Liturgy of the Eucharist. What was wrong with that? Why go and change the Mass that was OUR tradition and turn it into something that seriously resembles an Anglican service? I do believe that the Church has the authority but I very much think it was an error to change it. And many young people feel a sacredness to the Latin mass. The OF is boring. It’s repetitive. It’s valid but it isn’t the same. Not to mention where are Gregorian Chants? Instead we don’t songs like Amazing Grace and A Mighty Fortress Is Our God, which was written by…Martin Luther! It’s basically heresy! The Church called him a heretic and now he’s cited in our hymnal? Nothing against Protestants they didn’t partake in the sin but Luther, Calvin etc did. And now we commemorate them?

 

[OraLabora]

Not to mention where are Gregorian Chants?

At the local Benedictine abbey (OF), where I will be tomorrow to work in their library. At the Benedictine women’s abbey just out side of Montreal (OF). At a different parish every month in Sherbrooke, Quebec (OF). Ditto in Chicoutimi, Quebec City and Montreal. OF, OF, OF. Sant’ Anselmo in Rome (OF). Monte Cassino in Italy (OF). St. Wandrille abbey in France (OF). Communauté St. Martin, in France (OF). And of course, Solesmes in France (OF). Several other scholas across Canada.

 

[Entwhistler]

I have been talking about the growth of TLM throughout the world. I don’t know why you think that we are just talking about the US. France is merely a good example of the growth. I go to an FSSP parish and I’ve heard from multiple priests that the Fraternity is thriving. If you don’t want to think that, that is perfectly fine. But I don’t buy that for the various reasons that I have stated before.

 

[otjm]

No, the 2,147 bishops did not approve of the OF because there was still work to do. However, from the numerous regions from which the bishops came, they brought with them experts in liturgy. There seems to be this idea that the OF was created out of whole cloth. it was not - liturgical research had started with Pope Pius 10th, and had taken a serious upswing during the time of Pope Pius 12th.

as to striping away the last Godpel, that is an excellent example of things which had been added on over time. Originally it was said by the priest outside of the Mass; then was added in; an example of things the bishops wanted reduced.

We can all have our favorites of parts of the EF that did not go over to the OF. What I would like to see, rather than mourning the loss of Psalm 42, would be the addition of Psalm 51.

Christ did not celebrate a Mass; He celebrated the Passover and instituted the Eucharist. The earliest Church celebrated the Mass, if you will, over two days, as they went to synagogue on Saturday, and celebrated the Eucharist on Sunday. And as the Church spread, what we know as the Mass developed along different lines, as we have the Eastern rites as well as the Western rites,

And it helps to know and understand the dynamics (I will use that word instead of politics) of Vatican 2. Lead by Cardinal Ottaviani, the conservative element attempted to set the form and format of the Council, and were rejected, with numerous documents rewritten. I will leave it to archivists to determine what parts of the various documents were compromises with the conservative element; was Latin? Possibly, although there were bishops who were adamant about the vernacular, particularly from Asia.

And Latin is still retained; the OF is promulgated in Latin, from which translations are made (the “for all/for many” controversy being a prime example of finally getting a better translation of the Latin, in Engish). Additionally, where there are options, the bishop of each diocese is the chief liturgist and may invoke his preference as to such. If the bishop is not insisting on the Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus Dei being recited and/or sung in Latin, well, it would seem that the bishops are making a choice.

 

[Duc-in-altum]

So the only EF Mass offered near you is at 6:45 AM on Saturday? Does that not strike you as odd? It sure seems to me that somebody does not want people to experience the beauty of the EF. Why not petition to have an EF Mass at 8 or 9 AM on Sunday? See if a few people go. I know some, like me, will be drawn to the beauty and history of the EF and venture deeper into their Catholic Faith. What are you afraid of?

 

[otjm]

Your opinion is based on a complete lack of knowledge of what Modernism was. In the mid to late 1800’s, particularly among German Protestant theologians, new methods of analysis of the Old Testament (in particular) and the New Testament started, and eventually lead the liberal wing to a point which sould not be clearly separated from atheism. There was a combination of research and ideas moving too fast for the Church, and some (mot certainly not all) research leading down the proverbial rabbit hole.

But Modernism was the brew of research methods and research conclusions in scripture. It has nothing to do with the liturgy or the reshaping of the liturgy, in spite of the loud protestations of some Traditionalists. Nothing in the change of the Mass from the EF to the OF leads to atheism, but the term “Modernism” and “modernist” gets applied with abandon by those who simply don’t like the changes, and often have no knowledge of liturgical history.

Who was complaining about it? A large number of bishops and a large number of liturgical (not scriptural) scholars. Did the people in the pews know what was going on within academic circles? Mostly not, as most of it was not published in magazines and newsapers, but rather in scholarly journals.

 

[Duc-in-altum]

Yep. And now, after the consecration and the minor elevation at the most solemn moment where we are about to receive Christ in the Eucharist, we are now asked to stand, turn away from the present Christ and shake hands with Wilber in the pew behind us.

 

[OraLabora]

Yep. And now, after the consecration and the minor elevation at the most solemn moment where we are about to receive Christ in the Eucharist, we are now asked to stand, turn away from the present Christ and shake hands with Wilber in the pew behind us.

As the Rule of St. Benedict says, we are to greet everyone as if we were greeting “Christ Himself” as everyone has the mark of Christ on his or her soul. Communion is the supreme moment where through sacramental grace we are reunited into the Body of Christ. It doesn’t to me, then, seem that incongruent to greet he or she we are about to join in communion with Christ.

 

[otjm]

No, it doesn’t strike me as odd at all. The EF is not the norm; it is the “not norm”. I don’t have the history of its presence in the parish, but it is not a secret; it is in the bulletine every week, and people who go there are certainly capable of speaking with other parishioners and other Catholics to laud its presence.

There is a very simple fact, one that upsets those who favor (or stronger) the EF; and that is, there simply is not much interest in it. If there was strong interest, that might make a difference, as that would imply that a significant number of parishioners wanted it. When it is a small group, it is simply not going to replace one of the Sunday OF’s, for much larger groups.

Rather than odd, it should be noted that the parish is offering something to a very small group. One of the requirements of SP is “Art. 5, §1 In parishes where a group of the faithful attached to the previous liturgical tradition stably exists”. Interestingly, Pope Benedict did not state what size group it is. And where that group is small, it will have to take its place along with the rest of the parish - meaning if therre is more demand for the OF, it will have to find somewhere else in the calendar than replaceing a large number who wish to attend the OF.

to put it another way: given that there are 192 parishes in this Archdiocese, and 7 of them have the EF in some form at some time (at least one of them is once every 2 months), the facts pretty much speak for themselves. Small numbers are being accommodated - which is a good thing. But the tail does not wag the dog.

To answer your question another way, they could petition all they want, but 30 to 50 people are not going to replace 300 to 400. Most people do not want the EF. They want the OF, a point that seems hard to get across.

 

[Duc-in-altum]

You assume that J and others like me have a complete lack of understanding of modernism. On the contrary, I am well versed in modernism in both a secular and liturgical sense. In fact, I recommend you research the reason behind why Pope Pius X required the oath against modernism, and may God allow your eyes to be opened.

 

[otjm]

If you want to talk about the whole world, then instead of simply saying that it is growing, you are going to have to put facts forth showing that. As I said, France is an extremely poor example as there are issues there which go back to the French Revolution and color just about everything.

I have stated facts and you have stated allegations. The FSSP Fraternity may be thriving, But that means exceedingly little other than that they are not falling apart. They have according to their website a bit short of 300 priests - for the whole world. I am not saying they are not doing well - but put into perspective (such as over 17,000 parishes in the US) it is not even a drop in the bucket world wide. That is not a negative. It is simply a fact.

And you have not stated any facts for me to believe that the EF is growing in the world; you have stated allegations.