Should Latin mass be brought back?

[ProVobis]

I have wondered about that myself. I don’t know how the dogmatic creeds or doctrina of Trent apply to monasteries. Perhaps oralabora can fill us in.

 

[TheCatholicKnight]

You can try to “slide under” by saying "critique – it is what it is.

“Critiquing” and “attacking” are two separate actions. The former is simply explaining and giving arguments as to why something is the way it is, and the latter is usually emotional arguments mixed with Ad hominems.

If Fr. Ripperger is going around saying the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in the Ordinary Form is deficient – no thank you. Any priest – who says such things about the OF-- betrays Christ/the Altar of the OF–betrays his brother priests who celebrate the OF – and betrays his own ordination.

I guess, then, that all the Priests who leave the diocesan parish life for a more traditional parish life (I am referring to when diocesan Priests join the FSSP in order to not be hassled by their Bishops), are also “betraying their own ordination”. Actually, if anyone is “betraying” their own vocations/ordinations, it’s the priests who persist in saying the New Mass when knowing full well that the Tridentine Mass is superior! I agree, the New Mass is the Holy Sacrifice of Christ on the Altar, that’s not what is being discussed here, but what is being discussed is whether or not the New Mass is more meritorious/spiritually nourishing, which it objectively isn’t.

 

[Walking_Home]

Walking_Home:

You can try to “slide under” by saying "critique – it is what it is.

“Critiquing” and “attacking” are two separate actions. The former is simply explaining and giving arguments as to why something is the way it is, and the latter is usually emotional arguments mixed with Ad hominems.

If Fr. Ripperger is going around saying the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in the Ordinary Form is deficient – no thank you. Any priest – who says such things about the OF-- betrays Christ/the Altar of the OF–betrays his brother priests who celebrate the OF – and betrays his own ordination.

I guess, then, that all the Priests who leave the diocesan parish life for a more traditional parish life (I am referring to when diocesan Priests join the FSSP in order to not be hassled by their Bishops), are also “betraying their own ordination”.

Actually, if anyone is “betraying” their own vocations/ordinations, it’s the priests who persist in saying the New Mass when knowing full well that the Tridentine Mass is superior!

*** I agree, the New Mass is the Holy Sacrifice of Christ on the Altar, that’s not what is being discussed here, but what is being discussed is whether or not the New Mass is more meritorious/spiritually nourishing, which it objectively isn’t.

---

Attacking by another name – is still attacking.

Nothing wrong with a diocesan priest moving over to a traditional order. What is wrong – is for a priest to turn on the OF.
A priest is not ordained to “poison” the flock against the OF. One who does is betraying Christ – who becomes present on the Altars of the OF – he betrays his brother priests – and his ordination.

The poison is quite evident in this thread.

And not only in this thread – but the poison flows through out the various toxic “traditional” sites/blogs/etc.

 

[OraLabora]

I have wondered about that myself. I don’t know how the dogmatic creeds or doctrina of Trent apply to monasteries. Perhaps oralabora can fill us in.

Well anything dogmatic or doctrinal will apply in monasteries. Some issues of discipline may be different. One major difference is that of authority: the bishop is not the ordinary in a monastery, the abbot is. So the abbot is the authority to regulate the liturgy. Benedictines no longer have a separate rite, though they often use the Roman Gradual which means the responsorial psalm is replaced by the Gradual.

In terms of the Mass then, there is very little different in a Benedictine Mass than a diocesan one, except that the will use the Benedictine, and not the General Roman calendars (so the feasts may not be the same), and most moveable solemnities are actually celebrated on the traditional day (e.g. Ascension is on Thursday, not moved to the nearest Sunday). There are other little signs to show that it’s a conventual and not a parish Mass, for example there is no collection (our abbey has a collection box in the narthex). And as monasteries (of men) have several priests usually, you won’t find any EMHCs.

For the Divine Office, however, you will find great latitude. There are 4 basic Benedictine schemas, for instance, plus some monasteries use the secular Liturgy of the Hours, and there are a few house schemas that don’t fit any of the above. Ours uses schema B, 150 psalms per week, with Lauds and Vespers in Latin Gregorian chant, the rest in French plainchant with Latin Gregorian hymns.

Abbeys are 100% faithful to the Pope and the Magesterium, and the priest monks all have advanced degrees and extensive theological training. So their liturgy is generally alway very sound and in synch with the thinking of the Church, whether they use the OF or EF liturgy (you can find both).

 

[OraLabora]

No, I mean objectively. The New Mass is in and of itself deficient in form, and in presentation. Here are a few links:

Nonsense, and your link does nothing to prove it, in fact it makes an egregious error in this statement:

“A meal
a) Both eating and drinking must take place;”

It is not necessary to consume both species at communion. Our abbey, and my parish, only give communion in one species (Host).

The section on discipline also contains egregious errors:

Any and all distribute Communion

False, EHMCs are trained

• Communion standing, in the hand

A discipline that has nothing to do with the form of the Mass

• Church more a house of the people than of God; tabernacle separated from the main altar. The building only has meaning when the community is gathered

Has nothing to do with the form of the Mass, separate tabernacles existed in pre-Vatican II days as well in particular in places with multiple altars such as monasteries

In short, a poorly researched trash piece by the usual toxic traditionalists trying to diss a valid, noble and grace-filled liturgy, when executed with reverence.

 

[TheCatholicKnight]

Nothing wrong with a diocesan priest moving over to a traditional order. What is wrong – is for a priest to turn on the OF.

A priest is not ordained to “poison” the flock against the OF. One who does is betraying Christ – who becomes present on the Altars of the OF – he betrays his brother priests – and his ordination.

I am not sure what you’re trying to say, but Priests who realize the truth about the New Mass aren’t betraying their ordained brethren, if anything they’re the witness to the truth of the faith, and leading by example.

 

[Duesenberg]

The truth is there are issues of reverence in the New Rite.

It’s not a “new rite.” Both the OF Mass and the EF Mass are of the same rite, they are different forms of the Mass. That’s not nit-picking, that’s significant.

It’s erroneous to suggest there are intrinsic “issues of reverence” in the OF Mass. That’s simply not true. Neither the OF nor the EF Mass have “issues of reverence” per their design. Both however have the potential for such issues based on how they are actually celebrated.

 

[Duesenberg]

Priests who realize the truth about the New Mass

What “truth” do you speak of? Where does the Catholic Church describe and document this “truth”? Please advise.

 

[Walking_Home]

Walking_Home:

Nothing wrong with a diocesan priest moving over to a traditional order. What is wrong – is for a priest to turn on the OF.

A priest is not ordained to “poison” the flock against the OF. One who does is betraying Christ – who becomes present on the Altars of the OF – he betrays his brother priests – and his ordination.

I am not sure what you’re trying to say, but Priests who realize the truth about the New Mass aren’t betraying their ordained brethren, if anything they’re the witness to the truth of the faith, and leading by example.

---

The truth – is both forms of the Mass offer the same Grace/ the same path–to salvation to the faithful. Those priest who turn on the OF – are “witnessing” — but Not to the truth.

 

[Duesenberg]

Actually, in my diocese there was a group of people who appealed to Rome for a Latin Mass because the bishop wouldn’t allow it. Benedict XVI obliged them.

Exactly how did Pope Benedict XVI facilitate this? I would be interested in knowing. How large was the group? Thanks.

 

[Duesenberg]

In my opinion the Church gave into modernism. The EF Mass is the sacred Mass that was used for 400 years. Who was complaining about it?

The OF Mass is also the Sacred Mass.

I’ve got absolutely no problem with the vernacular but the overall rubrics of how the mass is said should never have been touched.

Says who?

Why go and change the Mass that was OUR tradition and turn it into something that seriously resembles an Anglican service?

So what if it resembles an “Anglican service”? I suspect in reality, the OF Mass resembles the ancient sacrificial liturgies of the Church. The ones that came before the EF Mass.

And many young people feel a sacredness to the Latin mass.

Actually not all that many in the greater scheme of things.

The OF is boring.

According to you.

Not to mention where are Gregorian Chants? Instead we don’t songs like Amazing Grace and A Mighty Fortress Is Our God, which was written by…Martin Luther! It’s basically heresy! The Church called him a heretic and now he’s cited in our hymnal? Nothing against Protestants they didn’t partake in the sin but Luther, Calvin etc did. And now we commemorate them?

This has nothing to do with the formulation of the OF Mass.

 

[Walking_Home]

Case in point ---- Poison.

Actually, no, the New Mass doesn’t give one the same graces that you would at the Tridentine Mass. It’s a separate Rite, and inferior (theologically) to every other Rite in existence.

 

[Entwhistler]

I don’t know how the Pope facilitated it. It happened before I began going to the Latin Mass. I assume he sent a letter to the Bishop because the Bishop let a diocesan priest learn the Latin Mass. I don’t have numbers but the community was pretty big. Not huge but big enough.

 

[Duesenberg]

Actually, no, the New Mass doesn’t give one the same graces that you would at the Tridentine Mass.

Same rite, different form. What you suggest is not only patently untrue, it’s also dangerous. I cannot imagine any Catholic Christian would actually believe that the celebration of the OF Mass dispenses less grace than the celebration of the EF Mass.

 

[Inisfallen]

Actually, no, the New Mass doesn’t give one the same graces that you would at the Tridentine Mass. It’s a separate Rite, and inferior (theologically) to every other Rite in existence.

Can you point us to an authority on this, or is this just your personal judgment?

 

[TheCatholicKnight]

Can you point us to an authority on this, or is this just your personal judgment?

Here is an article by Fr. Ripperger: http://www.u.arizona.edu/~aversa/modernism/Merit of the Mass (Fr. Ripperger, F.S.S.P.).pdf

 

[Walking_Home]

Thinking of : “the New Mass doesn’t give one the same graces that you would at the Tridentine Mass. The OF is inferior”. It dawned on me – it follows the same erroneous/heretical path as the Utraquist/utraquism. That group believed the form of Communion made a difference in the the Grace received. Receiving one species (Body or Blood)-- was inferior/offered less Grace as compared to receiving both (Body and Blood).

Just change the object – from the form of communion – to the form of the Mass.

 

[Midwest88]

Well let me see, vapidness of megachurches vs Tridentine Mass. Not the same thing. Not even remotely. I prefer the latter. What’s your point?

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Well let me see, vapidness of megachurches vs Tridentine Mass. Not the same thing. Not even remotely. I prefer the latter. What’s your point?

Emotionalism is emotionalism no matter the source. Just because you approve of the action dosn’t make it any less of an invalid response.

 

[Midwest88]

Young people love the sacredness of a mass you never experienced

Despite the NO being the standard there are EF masses in existence. And believe it or not some young people have been to the EF … and liked it.

But please, don’t come here and insult those of us that were around before and after Vatican II.

I didn’t see it as insulting. And this the Traditional subforum so the EF will be preferred and there will be criticisms towards the NO.