Should Latin mass be brought back?

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That is not something Orthodoxy has changed. Most Orthodox parishes do not use musical instruments. Mine (Coptic) uses cymbals, and sometimes a triangle. That’s it really. Doctrinally we have not changed.
 
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of course. There are some things. For example, we no longer all precess to Church from the Bishop’s house. This is no longer practical as the church has gotten too big for this to occur. The same goes for public confession.
 
The counsel of Trent captured the Traditional Latin Liturgy, and it was declared “the Mass for all time” specifically to guard against the novelties of the Protestant Reformation. Was Vatican II presumptuous? Perhaps. But without a doubt, many radicals seized upon the confusion after Vatican II to impliment all kinds of novelties which were not intended by the Second Vatican Counsel. While the Novus Ordo is valid, we need to reign in Liturgical abuse, and we should certainly preserve and encourage “the Mass for all time.”
 
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Though Gregorian Chant IS this Music, written in the 6th century,
The main corpus of Gregorian chant was produced in the 9th to 10th centuries, mostly in the Carolingian era.

Ambrosian chant pre-dates Gregory the Great, by some 2 centuries and Gregorian chant by some 5 centuries, so “Gregorian chant” (which was NOT written nor commissioned by Gregory the Great), was most certainly not the first Western liturgical music. Reference to Ambrosian chant can be found in the 6th Century Rule of St. Benedict, where he refers to the hymn as the “Ambrosian”. Gregorian chant was not yet “invented” in the time of St. Benedict, though some early elements such were.

Mozarabic, Gallican, Old Roman and Beneventan chant all pre-date Gregorian chant and were in fact heavy influences in the later Gregorian chant. Gregorian chant did go into a period of decline and was finally revived in the late 19th Century by the monks of Solesmes, who produced the Vatican Edition of the Roman Gradual, from which all modern Graduals, including the 1974 post-Vatican II Graduale Romanum, flowed.
 
There’s a problem when our Catholic approved Hymnals now include " A Mighty Fortress Is Our God " and “Amazing Grace”. Those are most genuinely Protestant . In fact the first, written by Martin Luther himself was used as a battle hymn when trying to destroy Catholic villages.
 
There’s a problem when our Catholic approved Hymnals now include " A Mighty Fortress Is Our God " and “Amazing Grace”. Those are most genuinely Protestant . In fact the first, written by Martin Luther himself was used as a battle hymn when trying to destroy Catholic villages.
No problem. Good for celebration. The Latin Mass does not seem like a celebration, a ritual for sure, but not a celebration.
 
Low Masses might not feel that way, but a Solemn High Mass…that can give you a high.
 
To the Catholic Knight: It was restored; in July 2007 Summorum Pontificum was promulgated (the EF Mass was in existence bofore that, but this widened the possibility). In 10 years, over 97% of parishes do not have the EF, and in the remaining less than 3%, most have it in limited circumstances along with the OF.

Given there are 17,233 parishes as of 2016, and approximately 14,920 priests in active ministry, the likelihood of any significant increase is null and none. The bishops’ first responsibility is to the majority of parishioners, and the vast majority of parishioners prefer the OF.
Well, I am not sure why this is relevant to what I said, even Pope Paul VI said that he feared that a minority of those who claimed to hold the Catholic faith would actually hold it. Also, Fr. Justin Nolan, FSSP mentioned in a talk about how an increase in Priests celebrating the Latin Mass was true, and that he believed in about 5 or so years (from where we are now compared to the talk), he could see us having almost half of the parishes in the USA having Traditional Masses. Another point to mention, the SSPX are currently growing in vocations, since they just had to build a new American seminary since they were turning away so many people.

Not only that, it’s undeniable that most children today prefer the Traditional Latin Mass. Young people in the Novus Ordo are also not having any children, which in the future will deteriorate the numbers attend the New Mass. Many of my local New Masses are attended by lapsed, cradle, or non-practicing “I’m Mexican so it’s tradition to go to Mass” types of people, and it’s very sad. Why do you think that many “Catholics” surveyed today think that things like Gay “marriage” is okay?

To address your comment about how most “prefer” the Novus Ordo, I would counter that with the idea that we do not go to Mass simply for preference, but because it’s the center of our faith. The center of our faith ought to represent it, which the Novus Ordo does poorly (again, Lex Orandi, Lex credendi). Also, the Bishops first and number one duty is to uphold the faith, not to cater to his flock. He is the shepherd, not you or me, so he should decide in light of having a good conscience.

God Bless, I hope one day you will attend the Tridentine Mass exclusively.
 
🤣

People who go to TLM are the only ones having children?

Wut? 🤨

The diocese next to mine with 40 seminarians has 30 “graduates” of the OF high school program Lifeteen. The remaining 10 are either older or not from the US.

I’m part of a Catholic Moms group. It’s part of St. Gregory’s pocket, a nationwide set of chapters of Catholic Mom’s. We all go to the OF.

Your assertiosn are completely off base.
 
I would disagree,

That’s great that there is a Catholic moms group like that, but it doesn’t make up for the fact that the average Catholic attending the New Mass is having children later in life, which usually leads to having less children in general. It’s hard to use statistics since the traditionalist movement is still growing, but we can still use statistics like the growing number of French Traditional Priests: http://centurioweblog.blogspot.ca/2014/07/traditional-priests-in-france-until-2050.html?m=1
 
I don’t know when Father Nolan made his comment, but it is now 10 years since SP was promulgated, and we are about at stasis: meaning, there are about as many parishes stopping having the EF as there are parishes starting it. There is absolutely no proof whatsoever, that the EF is growing in any significant way whatsoever. Over 8,000 more parishes starting the EF? Not in your wildest dreams. In fact, recently a priest who has been very committed to saying the EF publicly came out with an article noting that if something doesn’t change, the EF is going to simply dwindle away - and he was speaking from the inside.

The SSPX are averaging (as of statistics published in 2012, from 1999 through 2012, between 19 and 20 (19.5) ordinations worldwide per year. World wide, not US wide. In 2012 they ordained a grand total of 7 priests in the US. And in 2012 they had 561 priests. World wide. That doesn’t amount to a drop in the bucket.

It is absolutely deniable that that most children prefer the EF; the vast majority of children have never seen one and with fewer than 3% of parishes having one, they never will see one.

You don’t like the word “prefer”? Let me put it another way; in 10 years since SP was promulgated, the vast majority have not requested the EF, as the OF is the center of our Faith. The fact that you don’t like it does not make the vast majority of bishops of the world, and the vast majority of priests of the world, wrong. I hate to tell you, but the bishops are shepherding their flocks.

And the Holy Spirit is still guiding the Church.

And as for your “Lex Orandi, Lex credendi”, I would submit that the Faith is well represented in the OF; the New Testamanet readings have been expanded and we now have readings from the Old Testament, most of which are tied to and/or foreshadow the Gospel readings (which have increased). It is fine to reiterate what you hear others saying in opposition to the OF, but repeating the same old urban myths does not make them suddenly true.

I am pleased that you like the EF and that you can attend. However, your estimations of how widespread it will be are made out of whole cloth. The reality is seriously to the contrary.
 
The term is Novus Ordo, not Novus Ordum. And because it has been used constantly by individuals who are dismissive of the Mass, the better term is the one used by Pope Benedict 16th - the Ordinary Form or the OF.
 
The following comments – come from a toxic “traditionalist” site. Lamenting that the OF is going strong.
Note what one of the comments says — of the local TLM.
Many say the NO religion is dying, but not where I live.
Its bigger than ever and growing.
I see hundreds of cars outside of NO services and maybe 1/5 that amount outside of Catholic Masses.

Our local Sunday TLM began with about 40 and now it is around 10 and dwindling.

The NO world is growing stronger and young priests embrace it.
“Reverent” or not it is Protestant.

Re: The Novus Ordo
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2017, 10:50:39 AM »

A certain (ancient) parish in my country here was done with 5+ years of major renovations, & today marked its reopening with a NO Mass … No words can describe how many Catholics flocked there … the numbers are so great to the extent that a massive multitude of them had to stand/sit outside the church doors/hang around the gardens … I couldn’t join in.
 
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Please don’t be so quick to attack others for their statements. It makes you sound bitter. The truth is there are issues of reverence in the New Rite. The problem isn’t so much the New Rite in of itself but the lack of clarity and room for error in the treatment of the Eucharist that the New Rite presents due to its presentation. Being a former Protestant I will say that progressively parishes have been slipping into something that mirrors Protestantism. Imparticulary there’s been an unsettling movement of charismatic “rival”. I have seen this when I was a Pentecostal and 98 percent of the time it’s not of the Holy Spirit. It’s either people convincing themselves that they are manifesting gifts like tongues or they are being assailed by demons.

The old Rite has many merits that we need to see return to the Church for the current generation. However that doesn’t mean we should seek to uproot or take out the New Rite either. Just as we have Easter Rite Catholics we can also have those of us like me who love and prefer the TLM and those who prefer the NO. The bishops throne should be shuffled to the side and the tabernacle placed back in the centre of parishes and alters I think should be more beautiful and inspiring.
 
I would disagree,

That’s great that there is a Catholic moms group like that, but it doesn’t make up for the fact that the average Catholic attending the New Mass is having children later in life, which usually leads to having less children in general. It’s hard to use statistics since the traditionalist movement is still growing, but we can still use statistics like the growing number of French Traditional Priests:
🤨

One country, one blog, a trend does not make. The data is also a projection that seems to have no basis in reality. It’s akin to a small business that triples in size in 10 years then declares 30 years from now they’ll be bigger than Walmart/Amazon. That goes against the law of attrition.

Again, 3/4 of the priests training at the seminary not far from me all have an affinity for the OF through Lifeteen. Many respect TLM, but it is not what gave them fervor. From my understanding from my friend’s meeting with other seminarians from all over the US, Lifeteen has been a factor in 1/3 to almost 100% of the vocations. As I said before, this is diocesan, and I know the path to religious orders vocations vary greatly.

Also, are you really going to pull the “TLM’ers” are going to out-populate OF’ers card? I have plenty of big family friends 5+ kids and read plenty of big family blogs 7-10 kids, who attend solely the OF Mass BECAUSE THEY PREFER IT. And their kids are brought up with love and fervor for their faith. It’s not as if all big families, or all young families, go to TLM. It’s not like all families passionate about their faith go to TLM.

Heck, even the top Catholic Homeschool programs still have a HUGE number of students and families who prefer the OF.
 
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The truth is there are issues of reverence in the New Rite. The problem isn’t so much the New Rite in of itself but the lack of clarity and room for error in the treatment of the Eucharist that the New Rite presents due to its presentation.
With all due respect, and seen from the lens of a lapsed-and-reverted cradle Catholic, this is rubbish.

Reverence is a matter of attitude, not of rubrics. I worship in a Benedictine abbey of the Solesmes Congregation, where the OF liturgy is extremely reverent. They use virtually all options open to them at one time or another. For the penitential rite, all three options, with Kyrie in Greek where mandated, and the troped Kyrie, chanted in the vernacular, on occasion during the week. They use all 4 main EPs at various times, from the Roman Canon to EP IV.

No matter which option used, it is reverent and carried out with love and care. There is no doubt about the mystery being celebrated (concelebrated facing the people).

As a chorister in a Gregorian schola that goes from parish to parish each month, I’ve seen two celebrants follow the rubrics exactly, but one being casual, one being very reverent. At one parish, the usual (very casual) priest was away and a priest from a missionary religious congregation took his place. Same words, same rubrics, spoken not sung, yet the missionary priest was completely effaced from the celebration; he was just the instrument of Christ who made himself present. It was extremely moving to watch. It had nothing to do with the form of the Mass, or the rubrics. It was all in his attitude (and no doubt also his training and the culture of his order).

Now you’re comparing your average parish OF Mass to an EF Mass that is being, most often, lovingly preserved by priests like those of the FSSP, or diocesan priests with a special interest in the older form.

Many people here were around when the Tridentine Mass was the only form (I was, but was too young to remember much), and they will tell you that many, many Tridentine Masses, while faithfully observant of the rules, were far, far from reverent: rushed, mumbled, etc. I understand where that comes from; I chant the Liturgy of the Hours daily, and on a day when I’m rushed to get out the door, I’m nowhere near as reverent as on days when I have time. We are after all, human.

It’s true that the EF has more “rules” or rubrics. But that’s just more to break. If the EF became the only form again, what makes people suppose that all of a sudden the irreverent celebrants who break the OF rules would suddenly become obedient little sheep in the older rite? One can argue “but if only the bishops would enforce discipline”. OK, you would maybe have fewer rules broken. But the attitude would be the same, and would shine through just as in my example of the casual secular priest vs. the reverent regular priest.

The irreverence you sense at regular Masses is simply the sign of our times and of our humanity. The attitudes that give rise to irreverence wouldn’t go away just because we change forms of the Mass.
 
Grew up with the Latin Mass and The OF was like a breath of fresh air. I like Latin, read the Psalms in it. But I have since been to a few EF Masses and find them to lack joy and celebration. EF is stern. I am glad it is an option but grateful for The OF as well.
 
In fact, recently a priest who has been very committed to saying the EF publicly came out with an article noting that if something doesn’t change, the EF is going to simply dwindle away - and he was speaking from the inside.
Not to be impudent but I have heard the exact opposite from many priests inside the EF bubble. Quite recently a priest from the FSSP said that TLM is growing. In fact in France, he wouldn’t be surprised if it soon becomes half OF and half EF (which includes FSSP, SSPX and Institute of Christ the King). Since the OF is dwindling and the EF is growing). He said the SSPX is having to build a new seminary since they can’t hold their seminarians anymore. Of course that is France which is dramatically decreasing in the Catholic factor. The OF isn’t dwindling near as much in the US as it is in France. But, maybe in the Dioceses there is a stasis, but there is definitely no stasis in the FSSP, SSPX, ICK, etc.
 
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The OF in France is being revived by the Communauté St. Martin which is growing so fast they had to move to larger facilities. They promote an reverent OF (Gregorian chant, and they also produced an excellent OF antiphonary to do the day hours of the Liturgy of the Hours in Gregorian chant). They also staff parishes in threes so that priests can have a sense of community and not succumb to the loneliness that leads to lost vocations or inappropriate behaviours.

I wouldn’t count the French OF as dead yet. Not to mention France is where Solesmes is, and Solesmes, an OF house, is where Gregorian chant is formally preserved (by edict of the Vatican), studied, and revived. In fact the Communauté St. Martin have largely inspired themselves from the Benedictines, both in liturgy and in how they approach community life.
 
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