Should Latin mass be brought back?

[godisgood77]

Stputl, that is a loaded set of questions that I likely can’t answer in full in the space allowed here (or all of that typing on my mobile phone!)

However, I will say this… the OF was promulgated by Paul VI… you ask exactly who made and approved the changes to the liturgy, the answer is the Pope himself. Of course, a commission of his founding and countless collaborations were involved, but the authority was the Pope through the Apostolic Constitution Missale Romanum…

Here are some key passages, but in general devotionalism and rubricism were the items that many of the changes sought to correct.

7. Concerning the rite of the Mass, “the rites are to be simplified, while due care is taken to preserve their substance.” Also to be eliminated are “elements which, with the passage of time, came to be duplicated, or were added with but little advantage,” above all in the rites of offering the berad and wine, and in those of the breaking of the bread and of communion.

8. Also, "other elements which have suffered injury through accidents of history are now to be restored to the earlier norm of the holy Fathers:

For some of the more aesthetic issues you mention (communion in the hand, altar rails etc.), I think we can look to #13 While leaving room in the new Missal, according to the order of the Second Vatican Council, “for legitimate variations and adaptations,”

For this last point, I have seen many call out the people who facilitated these changes, but these people were nonetheless the competent authorities.

 

[ProVobis]

Actually I’m glad you brought it up. As I understand it, Pope Benedict allowed the Anglicans to keep their version of the Tridentine Mass because he saw no theological reason why prayers such as Psalm 42 and Offertory and others were removed by the reformers. He had sound reasons for his actions.

 

[TheCatholicKnight]

Many say the NO religion is dying, but not where I live.

Its bigger than ever and growing.

I see hundreds of cars outside of NO services and maybe 1/5 that amount outside of Catholic Masses.

Our local Sunday TLM began with about 40 and now it is around 10 and dwindling.

I would like to ask, is your TLM run by the diocese? I would also like to see actual numbers of your diocese, so I can visibly see the correlation. Even if there was only one TLM in the entire world, it would still be true that the TLM is the best out of the two Masses, and that it’s more spiritually meritorious (See Fr. Ripperger). Therefore, the Tridentine Mass is more Catholic than the Novus Ordo, simply because of that very point, that it better represents the Catholic faith (and therefore spiritually meritorious).

 

[TheCatholicKnight]

One country, one blog, a trend does not make. The data is also a projection that seems to have no basis in reality. It’s akin to a small business that triples in size in 10 years then declares 30 years from now they’ll be bigger than Walmart/Amazon. That goes against the law of attrition.

Not sure what you mean by the Walmart/Amazon comment, but the link is comparing the decline of French Novus Ordo Priests would the increase of French Traditionalist Priests (which include the SSPX, FSSP, and ICKSP).

Again, 3/4 of the priests training at the seminary not far from me all have an affinity for the OF through Lifeteen. Many respect TLM, but it is not what gave them fervor. From my understanding from my friend’s meeting with other seminarians from all over the US, Lifeteen has been a factor in 1/3 to almost 100% of the vocations. As I said before, this is diocesan, and I know the path to religious orders vocations vary greatly.

Well, given LifeTeen has a very negative stigmata (I know certain people who have had to have deliverance prayers after attending), I wouldn’t really say that’s all that impressive. The point is that the average number of seminarians are down, and the New Mass and post-Vatican II reforms have something to do with it.

Also, are you really going to pull the “TLM’ers” are going to out-populate OF’ers card? I have plenty of big family friends 5+ kids and read plenty of big family blogs 7-10 kids, who attend solely the OF Mass BECAUSE THEY PREFER IT. And their kids are brought up with love and fervor for their faith. It’s not as if all big families, or all young families, go to TLM. It’s not like all families passionate about their faith go to TLM.

That’s awesome, it’s always great to hear that big families still exist, but again, it’s hard for me to disprove what you’re saying since I do not and cannot know or attain the information you’re using. I provided a link to the French numbers, and I hope that If you consider to reply, you take that in mind.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

The numbers you link are a projection of data based on current trends. Just because things are trending up does not mean they will continue at the same rate for the next 20 years. It just doesn’t. That’s not how stats work. Just because TLM has a foothold, doesn’t mean that it will have upward projections forever, especially considering how quickly the church is losing members to atheism.

Seminarians are down in the US compared to decades ago…but they are coming from parishes that are alive. Those parishes are ones with active youth ministries. And quite frankly the seminaries pre-VatII were the ones that produced a good number of now scandalized priests, so I don’t put all that much weight in them. Most places of “vocation” like the Shakers, etc, are also “down” in “vocations”. I think many of the dioceses are now doing quite well for themselves.

Deliverance prayers after Lifeteen? Okkkkkk yeah whatever. That’s just emotional drivel and bias.

The French numbers are the numbers of an insular country with infrastructure and propensity towards wanting the old that they cannot have as their country embraces atheism and multiculturalism. It’s basically unrepeatable except maybe in Spain…

 

[Walking_Home]

Therefore, the Tridentine Mass is more Catholic than the Novus Ordo, simply because of that very point, that it better represents the Catholic faith (and therefore spiritually meritorious).

---

I honestly don’t know – how anyone can approach the Sacrament of Communion – with that kind of thought in mind.

When receiving Communion – it’s Communion with God and with each and every Mass/congregation around the world.
Same Holy Sacrifice on the Altars of the OF/ and the same Grace flows – as in the EF.

 

[TheCatholicKnight]

The numbers you link are a projection of data based on current trends. Just because things are trending up does not mean they will continue at the same rate for the next 20 years.

Except, it’s growing, and continuing to do so, which is a God driven movement (I believe Bishop Athanasius said this). God willing soon we will have a orthodox prelate in the Seat of Peter.

And quite frankly the seminaries pre-VatII were the ones that produced a good number of now scandalized priests,

I would LOVE for you to explain that further, because that is complete hogwash. Seminaries before Vatican II taught Seminarians to be men, which is connected to the title of Priests as being an “alter christus” (another Christ); Christ was the perfect man, and so must our Priests. Videos of seminarians now, which actually put to shame a strict and orderly seminary, are being posted on YouTube:

Deliverance prayers after Lifeteen? Okkkkkk yeah whatever. That’s just emotional drivel and bias.

I was actually mistaken, it was Steubenville where this happened, but they do pretty much the same stuff at LifeTeen, and are very similar in origin and activity.

 

[tweedlealice]

Salutations,
Having observed these changes, the decline has nothing to do w Vatican II changes. The sexual revolution, working Moms, teens w their own agenda,
Families moving apart. Worldly contamination of teens. More secular teachers in parochial school. Having to pay for parochial school education.
USA is a barren nation. We need missionaries here.
Less religious in schools=less vocations. Priest scandal is relavent for drop in priest admissions, now.
Amen
In Christ’s Love
Tweedlealice

 

[otjm]

You are not impudent; you just look for any sign anywhere to bolster your comments.

It really does not matter in the least what is happening in France, as what happens in France has no impact on what the people in the pews do in the US. In a country where Mass attendances is in the single digits, any move within the whole of that group is amplified in percentage.

And as far as the size of the SSPX and how fast it is growing, the US ordained over 27 times as many priests as the SSPX did world wide. And as Fr. Ruggero noted previously, the sum total of priests in the SSPX doesn’t amount to a drop in the bucket of Catholic priests worldwide - and the SSPX at least theoretically, serves world wide (granting that they are in very few countries). to which I would add, the FSSP has about half as many priests as does the SSPX.

 

[otjm]

To which could be added the very real fact that families in the 1950’s and early 1960’s were larger; there simply more children per family. In short, there was a greater pool of children from which would come some who went to seminary. And I agree that it was not changes caused by Vatican 2 which in turn caused a decrease in vocations, but rather changes in society, most of which were definitely not for the better, which impacted those who might otherwise have gone to seminary.

 

[Entwhistler]

Well, the point that I was trying to make was that the Latin Mass is not stagnating. It is growing. Sure, it might amount to a drop in the bucket when compared with the size of the Church around the world. But the Church is huge. Sure when compared with the Church worldwide it will be small. But you have to play with percentages. The FSSP ordained 16 priests last year. Now, that is quite small compared with the US Church but when you think that the FSSP serves about a dioceses’ worth of churches it is rather large. So all I’m saying is that TLM isn’t going anywhere and it is growing.

 

[OraLabora]

Not sure what you mean by the Walmart/Amazon comment, but the link is comparing the decline of French Novus Ordo Priests would the increase of French Traditionalist Priests (which include the SSPX, FSSP, and ICKSP).

The problem this is too narrow a definition of “traditionalist”. One does not have to restrict the word “traditionalist” to the EF Mass and pre-Vatican II breviary. A true traditionalist would embrace the changes in the liturgy, and then busy him/herself applying our traditions to that liturgy. Our own abbey does it admirably by maintaining the tradition of Gregorian chant, traditional devotions such as saying the rosary in community, etc.

The monks of Solesmes did the same thing by adapting all of the Gregorian repertory to the new liturgy (still a work in progress with regards to the Liturgy of the Hours, only 2 volumes are complete: Vespers for Sundays, feasts and solemnities, and the hymnal).

Now the community of St. Martin is doing the same thing with the OF in France with great success; the use Gregorian chant, both for the Mass and the Liturgy of the Hours with their excellent diurnal antiphonary for the latter. In my mind, being a “traditionalist” does not mean second-guessing magisterial or disciplinary decisions of the Holy Father. As Benedictines we remain truly faithful to the Holy Father.

I participate in this sub-forum because I consider myself a “traditionalist”, actually a “Traditionalist” in the sense that I trust the Church pass down the wisdom of the Apostles and her authority to regulate the liturgy, and I see no inconsistency in adapting traditional liturgical music, for instance, to the reformed liturgy. To pit the OF adjusted to tradition against the EF is to set up a false dichotomy. It’s black-and-white thinking to say “OF = modernist, EF = traditionalist”. False, the OF can incorporate vast elements of tradition so that it becomes a truly unbroken line in the liturgy. It may not seem that way because of the way the reforms have been carried out at the parish/diocesan level, but anyone who is familiar with monastic liturgy cannot help but notice how the OF can embrace tradition in everything from music to the gestures of the celebrant, and how it can convey the exact intent of Sacrosanctum Concilium.

 

[ProVobis]

It really does not matter in the least what is happening in France, as what happens in France has no impact on what the people in the pews do in the US. In a country where Mass attendances is in the single digits, any move within the whole of that group is amplified in percentage.

And as far as the size of the SSPX and how fast it is growing, the US ordained over 27 times as many priests as the SSPX did world wide. And as Fr. Ruggero noted previously, the sum total of priests in the SSPX doesn’t amount to a drop in the bucket of Catholic priests worldwide - and the SSPX at least theoretically, serves world wide (granting that they are in very few countries). to which I would add, the FSSP has about half as many priests as does the SSPX.

That’s why a Personal Prelature for the fraternities which transcends dioceses and countries makes more sense from a numbers and financial perspective. When the FSSP or ICRSS gets admitted into a diocese, they tend to get buried somewhere and the diocese normally does not go out of their way to promote those chapels, shrines, or wherever they have to share with the mainstream litugies.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

That’s why a Personal Prelature for the fraternities which transcends dioceses and countries makes more sense from a numbers and financial perspective. When the FSSP or ICRSS gets admitted into a diocese, they tend to get buried somewhere and the diocese normally does not go out of their way to promote those chapels, shrines, or wherever they have to share with the mainstream litugies.

Now the dioveses should have a hand in “promoting” the works of those TLM parishes? A biline on a website is fine.

 

[ProVobis]

You can make that statement today. But remember prior to Vatican II, very few people went to Communion, relatively speaking. So the incentive to attend Mass was something other than to receive. And the percentage of Catholics attending Sunday and HDO Masses was like 70% as opposed to today’s 25% or so. Just sayin…

 

[otjm]

You may be right. That certainly has been coming to the surface for a long time.

However, I will leave it to others far above my pay grade as to if and when they and Rome are going to sort things out. We have had so many years of “It’s just around the corner” that I don’t even pay any attention any more.

 

[MonteRCMS]

Yes, the Latin Mass should be brought back … BUT … FIRST … people have to study Latin.

[Need to look on Amazon to see what “Latin books” they have.]

[Mica, mica, stella parva.]

[Twinkle, twinkle, little star.]

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Yes, the Latin Mass should be brought back … BUT … FIRST … people have to study Latin.

[Need to look on Amazon to see what “Latin books” they have.]

[Mica, mica, stella parva.]

[Twinkle, twinkle, little star.]

I’ve studied latin. I know all my basic prayers (our Father, Hail Mary, Apostles Creed, Guardian Angel) in Latin as well as English. I know the order of the Mass in Latin and many of those prayers.

But I prefer Mass in English.

 

[MonteRCMS]

Ditto, but I enjoy the Latin Mass … and am “distressed” at the “poor translations” that are used.

 

[ProVobis]

As Luke Henderson maintains, Latin = immortality.