Should Latin mass be brought back?

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That’s a complete misunderstanding of the contemplative prayer that should take place in the period of silence. In the OF when I try to thank God or offer intentions, my focus is consistently broken by the droning automatic responses of some of the other parishioners. Some of which do tend to shout the responses haha.

Ithe EF offers silence as a chance to speak to God. We should talk to him and try to listen. His first language is silence and that is when we hear Him best. When we are silent. If someone offers a decade in of the rosary in thanks and praise to the Lord during the Mass for the Mass then they are praying the Mass. Thats not to say they should be. Many parishes pray the rosary before Mass.
 
Same can be said for the Novus Ordo which is too centred on the people and not on God. The Novus Ordo doesn’t meet the needs of all nor does it fit the bill for reverent worship. There will always be those who feel the needs of all aren’t met. If that’s they case they are in a self centred state of error. The mass isn’t meant to meet your needs or anyone else’s. It already does through the Eucharist. We don’t go to get anything out of it. We go to give worship and thanks to God. The EF accomplishes that.
 
I know do you ever notice in the Eucharistic Prayer, people are so pawned to saying “Amen” after the words, “Through Christ our Lord”, that they say it even when they aren’t supposed too?
It’s funny and sad at the same time. The OF has basically turned us into pawns , almost robotic in nature during the Mass.
 
Matt_Michael said:
We don’t go to get anything out of it.
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We don’t?

I thought part of the reason we went to Mass was to be nourished by the Word and the Sacrament.

Yes, we give God worship and praise, and in return, God strengthens us to be His light in the world.
 
I’d like to add that we watch the priest as he ascends to the altar of God, to the tabernacle, and to the Holy of Holies. We watch as he speaks the Word to the east, then to the north, then to the congregation. We watch Him offer the Victim, then the chalice of salvation, and then wash his hands among the innocent. We then hear the Preface, which prepares us for the Consecration and the sacrifice as Abraham offered it. And so forth.

Point is the EF is a visual experience as well as contemplative.
 
You state that, “Unity is found in each person appealing to God in their own hearts, not in exterior repetition.” I think the authoritative documents say otherwise.
  1. The Church, therefore, earnestly desires that Christ’s faithful, when present at this mystery of faith, should not be there as strangers or silent spectators; on the contrary, through a good understanding of the rites and prayers they should take part in the sacred action conscious of what they are doing, with devotion and full collaboration. They should be instructed by God’s word and be nourished at the table of the Lord’s body; they should give thanks to God; by offering the Immaculate Victim, not only through the hands of the priest, but also with him, they should learn also to offer themselves; through Christ the Mediator, they should be drawn day by day into ever more perfect union with God and with each other, so that finally God may be all in all.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

And from GIRM
95. In the celebration of Mass the faithful form a holy people, a people whom God has made his own, a royal priesthood, so that they may give thanks to God and offer the spotless Victim not only through the hands of the priest but also together with him, and so that they may learn to offer themselves. They should, moreover, endeavor to make this clear by their deep religious sense and their charity toward brothers and sisters who participate with them in the same celebration.
Thus, they are to shun any appearance of individualism or division, keeping before their eyes that they have only one Father in heaven and accordingly are all brothers and sisters to each other.
96. Indeed, they form one body, whether by hearing the word of God, or by joining in the prayers and the singing, or above all by the common offering of Sacrifice and by a common partaking at the Lord’s table. This unity is beautifully apparent from the gestures and postures observed in common by the faithful.
 
How can one “fully collaborate” in the Eucharistic Prayer,for example, when their heart and mind is on a Hail Mary?
 
You can’t. And “fully collaborate” with the Presider of the Liturgical Assembly is what is indeed to occur.

All of this is in part why, when Pope Saint John XXIII convoked the Second Vatican Council and gave the bishops of the Catholic world the latitude to give the Council its agenda, based upon their pastoral experiences, these bishops – who were guided by the Holy Spirit – they determined that there was a critical need for the reform of every aspect of the Church’s liturgy.

Sacrosanctum Concilium enumerates this urgent and critical need for reform and restoration. It was to be accomplished by segments of the world’s bishops assisted by those who were the liturgical scholars who had gifted the Church with the liturgical movement that the bishops had experienced and knew so well. The entire college of bishops, ultimately, carrying the laudable work of reform and renewal forward.

This was to involve the Mass, each of the rites for the sacraments, the Liturgy of the Hours, the rites for sacramentals and blessings, sacred art, sacred music…in short, everything touching upon the liturgy was in need of both reformation and renewal.

Sacrosanctum Concilium:
  1. This sacred Council has several aims in view: it desires to impart an ever increasing vigor to the Christian life of the faithful; to adapt more suitably to the needs of our own times those institutions which are subject to change; to foster whatever can promote union among all who believe in Christ; to strengthen whatever can help to call the whole of mankind into the household of the Church. The Council therefore sees particularly cogent reasons for undertaking the reform and promotion of the liturgy.
The concept of being able to do this silently is categorically rejected. The world’s bishops stated:
  1. The Church, therefore, earnestly desires that Christ’s faithful, when present at this mystery of faith, should not be there as strangers or silent spectators
as a direct critique of the vetus ordo.

Rather than being “silent spectators” the Fathers of the Council declared that the People of God were to be led in a very different direction
  1. Mother Church earnestly desires that all the faithful should be led to that fully conscious, and active participation in liturgical celebrations which is demanded by the very nature of the liturgy. Such participation by the Christian people as "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a redeemed people (1 Pet. 2:9; cf. 2:4-5), is their right and duty by reason of their baptism. In the restoration and promotion of the sacred liturgy, this full and active participation by all the people is the aim to be considered before all else
Before all else. And what marks this full, conscious, and active participation?
  1. To promote active participation, the people should be encouraged to take part by means of acclamations, responses, psalmody, antiphons, and songs, as well as by actions, gestures, and bodily attitudes
There has been no event more important in my lifetime and my priesthood than the Second Vatican Council. Truly, it was and will remain the most extraordinary gift of God for the Church in this time.
 
You are exactly correct in your reading of the documents and I commend you for your fidelity to the Council and to the living Magisterium of the Church.

It is the integralists who are to be recognised for what they are – those who wish to misrepresent the reform and renewal of the liturgy in the greatest moments of the Church in modern history – the Council and the post-Conciliar era.

It is they – these integralists – who are to be rejected.
 
And this in addition to taking a completely different direction on ecumenism and Church unity from previous decades, which was completely out of touch with ecclesial reality. No longer was it statements calling others to “return” but it was the search for unity as an ongoing journey together, while the Catholic bishops acknowledged the marvels that God had done outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Churches…in all of the others Churches and ecclesial communities.

As Unitatis Redintegratio decreed
The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.

It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.
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Agreed! I was in an OF mass yesterday for the Holy Souls in purgatory and the people were quickly firing off responses before the priest had finished his part! The consistent droning and loud nature of the OF has caused many Catholics to lose their meditation on the amazing mystery of faith occurring before their very eyes! It’s saddening
 
Precisely! It is about uniformity with Christ. Individual expressions and incorrect postures such as the use of Orans by the laity isn’t an indicator of the unifying power of the Holy Spirit. It is rather a manifestation of self centred importance. Sorry when people use Oran’s which is reserved for the priest it drives me nuts. Plus it’s distracting especially for those new to the faith. We shouldn’t be holding hands in the pews during the Our Father either. Again it’s like saying “look at us we are sooo pious”. That was something that I experienced as a Protestant before I converted.

I converted after 24 years of Protestantism because the “faith” was empty. It was centred on the people and the real presence of Christ was not in those places at all. The charismatic moment that’s now pervading the Catholic Church is a spiritual cancer fostered in by the misunderstandings and confusion fostered by Vatican II. Many good Catholics are deceived by this and don’t realize that by thinking a charismatic “unlocks” the gifts of the Holy Spirit, has succumbed to superstition and a lack of faith in the sacrament of Confirmation. The TLM promotes unity and the homilies within it teach what the NO is afraid too. The need for confession and the nature of sin.
 
What Pope Pius XII is praising is the result of the liturgical movement…which finds its fruition in the reform and the renewal of the liturgy by the ecumenical council.

The great gift of Providence which raised up in Europe the liturgical movement, in the heart of the Church, as a preparation across decades for what it would blossom into – and then raised up three of the most remarkable saints to occupy the Chair of Peter…John XXIII, Paul VI, and John Paul II.

And, in the midst of all of this, the Lord gave us that ecumenical council that was the greatest of councils in terms of assembled talent, wisdom, knowledge, and experience.

So Saint John XXIII and the Council Fathers greatly advanced and supremely surpassed the thought of Pope Pius XII by implementing renewal and reform of the liturgy.

How blessed we are that God has moved us well above as well as beyond the more limited thought of Pope Pius XII.
 
The Traditional Mass doesn’t have Eucharistic Prayers, it has the Canon, which you can examine here:

Text and rubrics of the Roman Canon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

The priest offers these prayers to God in silence, and during the Canon the faithful will pray in silence as well, offering and uniting themselves to God. Everyone has their own spirituality and cross, and so the means this is done will differ between persons. Many of the saints had their own particular prayers and devotions that they prayed during Mass; to give one example, St. Gertrude was told by Our Lord to pray the Our Father at the Elevation. For this reason it would not surprise me if someone found that praying Hail Mary’s helps them achieve union with God. My own preference is to meditate upon Our Lord on the Cross, and to try to offer up and join my sufferings to His, but obviously my approach would not suit everyone. Others derive more benefit by following along with a missal; others by repetition of simple invocations; still others by conciously offering up their physical ailments or illness, etc. Whatever the means chosen, the truly important thing is that together, we all strive to enter into Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross, and do our best to became one with Him, by offering ourselves to Him, through the priest, just as He offered Himself to His Heavenly Father.
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The Hail Mary or rosary may certainly assist one to find union with God and participate in the sacrifice of Christ but during Mass it is a distraction from the the sacrifice “right in fron of them”. The communal Eucharist has a higher priority then private devotions. Your argument seems to me to be more a defense of the individulism that was more frequent during TLM because people could not participate more fully with the priest. And by more fully I mean aware of the words, understanding them and joining in prayer with the very same words. So quite naturally private devotions were helpful and perhaps even promoted. But as Don Ruggero points out, the badly needed reform brought correction and improvement.
 
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Shakuhachi said:
The Hail Mary or rosary may certainly assist one to find union with God and participate in the sacrifice of Christ but during Mass it is a distraction from the the sacrifice “right in fron of them”.
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So what did people do in the Old Testament as the high priest entered the Holy of Holies once a year and offered their sacrifice for them? Was their sacrifice less pleasing to God because they were excluded from the inner walls of the Temple?
 
ProVobis said:
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Shakuhachi:
The Hail Mary or rosary may certainly assist one to find union with God and participate in the sacrifice of Christ but during Mass it is a distraction from the the sacrifice “right in fron of them”.
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So what did people do in the Old Testament as the high priest entered the Holy of Holies once a year and offered their sacrifice for them? Was their sacrifice less pleasing to God because they were excluded from the inner walls of the Temple?
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“Pleasing to God” is another issue. They certainly were excluded from full participation.
 
The progressive liturgical establishment is perhaps never more arrogant than when they try to dictate what “full participation” means. A person quietly praying the Rosary in the back of a church during Mass may well be participating far more fully in the Mass than someone who loudly makes every response and joins in singing every song.
 
Matt_Michael said:
As a former Protestant turned Catholic who recently started attending the Latin mass, I’ll say that the TLM is more Christological and God centred than the NO.
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This is me too MM and yesterday I was made very aware of the difference. When I converted I went to a very conservative NO parish and I loved the priest there (he has since been sent back to Slovakia). They do offer the TLM on Saturday nights and Wednesday mornings, but that’s it. This past June I started attending a ICKSP parish and mostly go there now, but yesterday I wanted to go to Mass for First Friday. Unfortunately I was up very late with a dear friend who is a Protestant (fallen away Catholic) having a major crisis in her life so I opted to be lazy, sleep in and go to the noon Mass at the NO parish. It turned out to be a funeral Mass. It was horrible. the family/friends of the deceased were obviously not Catholic or non-practicing Catholics. Horrible. I tried, but evidently not hard enough, to ignore them…I didn’t feel like I had attended Mass at all. And to top things off, I see today in the ICKSP parish’s bulletin that I missed a Requiem Mass yesterday (I’ve not yet attended one and really want to). If only I hadn’t been lazy.
 
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