Should Latin mass be brought back?

[tweedlealice]

Salutations PianistClare,
In my first shocked response, at the thought of going back to Latin, meant for all masses, I panicked. My response was,”NOOOOO!”
Then, as dialogue grew, and I came down to earth; offer all. We have Spanish, French, VIETNAMESE, etc. Latin mass can be early mass. English usual mass. Specialties once a month or as Parish needs requires. All God wants, is for us to give Him the Circumcision of our hearts. We WANT to go to church to spend time w God.
In Christs love
Tweedlealice

 

[tweedlealice]

Salutations
Discussing the Latin mass has made me feel, there should be no contention. Be all inclusive. Keep main vernacular as language spoken in individual countries,I.e. Germany= main mass in German, etc.
America=English. Specialty masses as programmed.
Jesus loves us all. Jesus created us all.
Acts 2:46. “And continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they took their meat with gladness and simplicity of heart.”They spoke Aramaic, Latin (Vulgate Bible).
So, Latin was the common tongue. They spoke the vernacular.
In Christ’s love
Tweedlealice

 

[ProVobis]

As far as I remember, Latin wasn’t the problem. It’s not like a bunch of people got up one morning and said collectively, Latin must be done away with and not be taught anymore. No one I knew had even dreamed about having the Mass said in the vernacular. After all the Mass had been said in Latin (in the Western rite) since the early days of the Church. The very words of the Roman Canon had been unchanged for all that time. To solidify the Church’s position, Pope John XXIII issued his Veterum Sapientia in 1962. But others had other ideas.

 

[commenter]

The FSSP seminaries? After 30 years of existence, there are only two of them in the entire world. One in Wigratzbad, Germany and the other in Nebraska, United States.

For readers of this Forum, let us put into clear perspective the relative numbers.

The FSSP relates on their website that the total number of seminarians for the world is 150 [21 transitional deacons and 129 non-deacon seminarians]

30 years is not a long time for a religious order to build vocations.
Keep in mind the FSSP never had the huge advantage of institutions and (well earned) name recognition that the Jesuits, Franciscans, etc have. In other words FSSP is being built from the ground up, mostly by word of mouth.
The crucial figure is not just the total number of seminarians, but the consistently high ratio of seminarians to priests. (There are 287 priests currently).
I would bet there are some religious orders where there are 25 priests for every seminarian. My city, like so many cities, has a long history with many, many hundreds of Jesuits and Franciscans in recent decades, yet there have been scant vocations in recent years, despite so many thousands who went through those schools. This is in spite of the vast amount of free promotion the religious orders get from alumni networks, Public Relations offices (“Support our local Jesuit college”) and so on. In my city all Catholics, and most non Catholics, can identify some Jesuit or Franciscan institutions, even if those schools are hardly Jesuit or Franciscan in reality today.

Like the vast majority of US cities, we never had any FSSP at all. The fact that FSSP gets so many vocations with astonishingly little exposure in America and no promotion by the dioceses or institutions, says a lot.

 

[CuriousConvert1]

Internet says there were 4,823 Jesuits in 1988 and 2,395 in 2013…that’s a catastrophic drop.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Now that is a number worth talking about, unlike the Ecclesia Dei communities.

One of the major issues the Jesuits confront is the length of preparation for priesthood, in their formation programme. It is very daunting to start a process of formation in which priesthood can be 10 or more years in the future.

By contrast, with most Benedictines, one is a postulant, clothed in the habit as a novice for a year and a day, professes temporary vows for three years and admitted to solemn vows at the end of that period. After novitiate, a monk destined for Holy Orders would typically begin his studies, while ranked as a junior, and be ordained as a transitional deacon not all that long after solemn vows.

Today, thanks to new ecclesial movements and the explosion in the diversity of consecrated life, men have far more options with radical diversity than they had 50 or 75 years ago.

All that said, the American province of Jesuits ordained 29 priests this year.

And the impact of the first Jesuit Pope will be historic and epic. In stature, he may surpass Pope Saint John XXIII for reform and renewal. He reminds me more and more of Good Pope John every day.

Could we be so blessed to have a Pope like John in Francis…and next have a Pope like the Blessed Paul VI to follow Francis? How wonderful would that be.

 

[CuriousConvert1]

But the Jesuits had 36000 priests and brothers in 1965, and now they have 16000 (rounding off internet numbers). That’s a 50 percent drop in 50 years.

 

[CuriousConvert1]

Father, could you speak more charitably about the “Ecclesia Dei communities”? Thank you.

 

[R_H_Benson]

All of this talk of how insignificant traditionalists are because of numbers seems quite foreign to the Gospel.

It isn’t the homosexuals or the divorced and remarried who are the most marginalized in the Catholic Church today. Those groups are constantly being pandered to. Even the Protestants Heretics (now referred to as our “Separated Brethren”) are treated with magnanimity by Rome. But Traditionalists? “Lefebrevists”? Different story. They are met with scorn, contempt, and vitriol from the hierarchy on down. Other Catholics will go out of their way to bash and criticize them. How many times on this very forum have we seen traditionalists hounded and berated by posters who swarm on them like sharks attracted to blood in the water. They are labeled “toxic”, “schismatic”, “unfaithful”. They are, in short, FAIR GAME. Easy targets. Sitting ducks. The hierarchy has no love for them. The few champions they do have, Cardinal Burke and Cardinal Sarah, are consistently humiliated by the Holy Father, much to the glee of their opponents. Why do traditionalists allow themselves to suffer this? Why do they load their entire family into a van every Sunday and Holy Day and drive hours to the nearest Traditional Mass? Because they long for and desire to worship Our Lord Jesus Christ through the Mass of All Ages - the Mass of the Saints. They long for the treasures of their Catholic patrimony that have been unjustly stolen from them and hidden away, replaced with a banal husk of their former glory. To be in the pews as Kyrie IX comes down from the choir loft as the priest incenses the high altar. To see Our Lord’s Most Precious Body and Blood treated with the tenderness and love He deserves by both priest and people. To see CATHOLICISM in all of its glory. To see Almighty God being given the very best we can offer Him in thanksgiving to Him for His Glory and for all that He has done for us. This makes it all worth it.

 

[whyeyeman]

Stop, you’re making too much sense. Stop being so rigid.

 

[R_H_Benson]

The FSSP seminaries? After 30 years of existence, there are only two of them in the entire world. One in Wigratzbad, Germany and the other in Nebraska, United States.

The bishops don’t want them…

But it isn’t really about numbers. It’s about forming holy priests. The Curé of Ars - one priest - saved innumerable souls through his humility and sanctity. I know the kind of men the Fraternity is ordaining. Second only to the religious of the traditional contemplative orders, they are the true heroes of our day. Please pray for them, Father.

 

[Augustinian]

The hierarchy has no love for them.

I am not a “traditionalist” in the sense that I haven’t been at a Latin mass since I was a kid and that’s all there was. Not even when I lived a block away from the Latin mass chapel back in the 1990’s.

However, I certainly understand where you’re coming from. The SSPX wanted to buy the St. Michael Church building that was empty for 10 years in Munhall, PA. The mayor of the town lobbied the bishop to sell, vacant buildings are good for business, and the bishop would budge. The diocese would not sell to a schismatic

On the other hand, other Catholic church buildings in the Pittsburgh area have been re-purposed into protestant churches of various denominations, housing, restaurants, day care centers and night clubs. But nothing schismatic.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Even the Protestants Heretics (now referred to as our “Separated Brethren”) are treated with magnanimity by Rome.

Let us be quite clear. You are under Church authority. The College of Bishops has said clearly in Unitatis Redintegratio: The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection.

You are therefore being disobedient in referring to non-Catholic Christians as “heretics” or in any way that goes against the directives of The Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism…which is binding upon Catholics and dispositive.

It would also be against the rules of this new Forum, which stipulates:

Catholics must be charitable in their discussions about non-Catholic belief and practice

…which is hardly the case when someone uses terminology that the hierarchy has specifically countermanded.

To make this clearer for Lutherans and other non-Catholics who will read this post: according to the decree of the Catholic Bishops of the world, gathered in ecumenical council, our attitude as Catholics, properly expressed, is that “we embrace the Lutherans and other non-Catholic Christians as sisters and brothers that we hold with respect and affection.”

Now regarding the term separated brethren. The canonised Saint of God had this to say in Ut Unum Sint about this usage:

Christians of one confession no longer consider other Christians as enemies or strangers but see them as brothers and sisters. Again, the very expression separated brethren tends to be replaced today by expressions which more readily evoke the deep communion — linked to the baptismal character — which the Spirit fosters in spite of historical and canonical divisions. Today we speak of “other Christians”, “others who have received Baptism”, and “Christians of other Communities”. The Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism refers to the Communities to which these Christians belong as “Churches and Ecclesial Communities that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church”. This broadening of vocabulary is indicative of a significant change in attitudes. There is an increased awareness that we all belong to Christ.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

It is especially catastrophic when a number of them were your friends of years standing and they reached the end of their life and you said goodbye because they have died.

On the other hand, I look forward to finding them again when my pilgrimage ends…hopefully as well as theirs.

I don’t look at numbers in isolation. I haven’t looked at the numbers for Jesuits lately – and these are not figures I keep in my head, in spite of teaching consecrated life – but accepting that what you relate is accurate, what value does that have? There are 0 Gilbertines and have been since the 16th century.

The Daughters of Charity have seen decline in their numbers while the Missionaries of Charity have swept around the world and, since their foundation that is in my memory, they have become one of the recognised and loved communities for Catholics and other Christians…and non-Christians.

There are something over 2000 fewer Jesuits – the numbers have changed since 2013 – but we also have a new form of Consecrated Life in Secular Institutes, approved by Pope Pius XII in Provida Mater Ecclesia in 1950. At this time there are something over 200 secular institutes with 60,000 members. They are part of the renewal of Consecrated Life that the Holy Spirit has been effecting since the middle of the 20th century. Not unlike when He completely overturned what had been woman’s experience of Religious Life beginning in the 16th and 17th century.

One can also speak of the new Ecclesial movements and all their members, who are advancing the life and renewal of the Church. And all the societies of apostolic life, lately founded.

The range of consecrated life is not what it was when those Jesuits who are reaching/reached within the past 30 years the end of life had when they made vocational discernment.

The beauty of the renewal is that there is markedly more opportunities for consecrated life.

That is why I have said…numbers in isolation like this really mean nothing.

 

[jas84173]

How is Protestantism not schismatic? I’m not saying I have a problem with them but last I checked Protestants aren’t exactly in communion with the Holy See…

 

[Don_Ruggero]

How is Protestantism not schismatic? I’m not saying I have a problem with them but last I checked Protestants aren’t exactly in communion with the Holy See…

Did you read post 846?

Have you read Ut Unum Sint?

 

[1Lord1Faith]

How many times on this very forum have we seen traditionalists hounded and berated by posters who swarm on them like sharks attracted to blood in the water. They are labeled “toxic”, “schismatic”, “unfaithful”.

I’ll have to assume you’re including yourself in this group you’re referring to as traditionalist. If that’s the case, would you like to be given the same understanding and compassion as you give to “Protestants Heretics”, or “the homosexuals”?

Do you see the irony in your position that Don Ruggero pointed out?

From what I’ve seen on these forums, it’s not a traditionalist’s desire for the Latin Mass that is found to be a problem. Rather, it’s the attitude present in their posts, and the accusations of ‘heretic’ that they hurl at Protestants and sometimes even at the Holy Father.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Father, could you speak more charitably about the “Ecclesia Dei communities”? Thank you.

I have no idea what you are even saying in terms of “speaking more charitably.”

You say you are a “curious convert.” Well, I have known the FSSP since the day in 1988 they sought refuge from Marcel Lefebvre and his followers

The ICK is based in the Archdiocese of Florence and I have known since months after it started. I have seen their progress across these years…more so than I dare say than probably anyone on this page.

But I am not emotionally engaged with or by these communities anymore than I am by other very tiny institutes of consecrated life, most especially of diocesan right. I am happy to respond to requests from them or about them or from their ecclesiastical superior on behalf of them – and would help, if asked, should the Church make some other disposition in their regard, such as dissolution.

These are matters I look at quite rationally and dispassionately…even as I have done various things to provide them with assistance across these decades.

 

[CuriousConvert1]

Help with their dissolution? What does that mean?

 

[R_H_Benson]

would you like to be given the same understanding and compassion as you give to “Protestants Heretics”, or “the homosexuals”?

Of course I would. Compassion is not affirming people in their sins and errors. That is an egregious offense. To pretend that there is nothing wrong and to lead such to believe that there is no need for conversion into the Catholic Church outside of which there is no salvation is a detestable and cowardly sin. To be compassionate we are to hate the sin and love the sinner. What do we have now but confusion? Regarding homosexuality, there is ambiguity (at best) being disseminated from the highest levels about the Church’s teaching about a sin which “cries out to heaven for vengeance”. Regarding the Protestants, we all witnessed the yearlong mockery made of martyrs, like St. Edmund Campion and others, who were tortured to death for their Catholic priesthood as our bishops celebrated the very thing that brought about their deaths - the “Reformation” - the singularly most disastrous event in human history: the literal cleaving into pieces of Christendom resulting in the loss of countless souls. And now there is rumor of some sort of “Ecumenical Mass (?!)” being concocted in Rome for joint “celebration” with the heretics. Were is the charity in this? Confusion. Ambiguity. These reign.

You are therefore being disobedient in referring to non-Catholic Christians as “heretics”

And with respect, Father, regarding your accusation of my being disobedient to the Church: The Traditional Roman Breviary of 1962 (liberated by Pope Benedict XVI in Summorum Pontificum)often makes references to heretics. If the Divine Office, the very Liturgy of our Holy Mother Church makes use of this term, then I have absolutely no qualms using it either.