Should liberals leave the catholic church?

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vern humphrey:
The Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church. That which is declared de fide by the Magisterium must be accepted and believed by all Catholics.

To be Catholic, one must accept the infallible Magisterium.

Rejection of the Magisterium is called ā€œProtestantism.ā€
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I donā€™t agreeā€¦

Infallibility is a gift of the Holy Spiritā€¦not tied to a person. The ā€œMagisteriumā€ isnā€™t infallibleā€¦there is a gift to be understood as the infallible teaching authority of the magisterium at those times when such a statement is invoked.

The problem with many people is they accept the Magisterium as infallible, which as a human institution it simply is not.
 
vern humphrey:
I follow the Magisterium.
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Fine, follow it. Leaving the judging of somebody who might disagree with some of it to a higher power.
 
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buffalo:
Tradition, The Magisterium and Scripture are the three legged stool of Catholicism. Remove one leg and you are not Catholic.
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Disagreeing and removing are 2 different things.
 
So no one knows what Truth is. This is what you are saying. We each have to hope that the Holy Spirit has guided us individually to figure everything out.
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frommi:
I donā€™t agreeā€¦

Infallibility is a gift of the Holy Spiritā€¦not tied to a person. The ā€œMagisteriumā€ isnā€™t infallibleā€¦there is a gift to be understood as the infallible teaching authority of the magisterium at those times when such a statement is invoked.

The problem with many people is they accept the Magisterium as infallible, which as a human institution it simply is not.
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buffalo:
Click on the link and read the whole tract. Then you could answer the question yourself.

Liberalism is a Sin
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Um ā€¦ the whole tract is 33 chapters long.

Youā€™ve read it, yes? Youā€™re the expert. Youā€™ve seen my opinions. You tell me. In the sense of ā€œliberalismā€ you presented, am I a liberal?
 
vern humphrey:
I see where you avoided answering the question.
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Then you have better eyesight than I do, Vern. I analogized the magisterium to my father: ā€œBoth are wise and learned and entitled to deference, but both are human and therefore capable of error.ā€

I know youā€™re looking for a yes/no answer. Youā€™ve made that quite clear. However, the question (in my case at least) is not susceptible to a yes/no answer, no matter how many times you ask it.

I am tempted to give you one anyway, just to see what would happen, but I think I already know.
 
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buffalo:
Do you disagree and obey, or do you disagree and disobey?
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I fall mostly in the agree with most, maybe disagree on some, try to obey, but sometimes fail.
 
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rlg94086:
So no one knows what Truth is. This is what you are saying. We each have to hope that the Holy Spirit has guided us individually to figure everything out.
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The Holy Spirit can guide, but whether youā€™re a member of the Magisterium, or just one of the laity, you have to recognize and accept that guidance. Humans are fallible and thus capable of possibly ignoring that guidance and going down the wrong path. Iā€™m not saying that has happened, but it is possible (IMO), which is why some folks may feel the guidance from the Magisterium is not infalliable.
 
The whole point of a Magisterium, is that Jesus left us a Church (through the apostles with Peter as chief key-holder). The Bishops, through apostolic succession have the ability to ā€œbind and looseā€ and the Pope, through succession from Peter was given the ā€œkeys to the Kingdomā€.

If you are relying on your ā€œfeelingsā€, then I hope you get it right. It could mean eternal life or death.
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mikew262:
The Holy Spirit can guide, but whether youā€™re a member of the Magisterium, or just one of the laity, you have to recognize and accept that guidance. Humans are fallible and thus capable of possibly ignoring that guidance and going down the wrong path. Iā€™m not saying that has happened, but it is possible (IMO), which is why some folks may feel the guidance from the Magisterium is not infalliable.
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rlg94086:
If you are relying on your ā€œfeelingsā€, then I hope you get it right. It could mean eternal life or death.
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Yes, as could relying on the ā€œfeelingā€ that the Church is correct when it purports to be infallible.
 
Penny Plain:
Yes, as could relying on the ā€œfeelingā€ that the Church is correct when it purports to be infallible.
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Not the same thing.

The Church is infallible in teaching fiath and morals. This protection was guaranteed by Jesus, through the Holy Spirit.

You have to take issue with Jesus.
 
Penny Plain:
Yes, as could relying on the ā€œfeelingā€ that the Church is correct when it purports to be infallible.
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We donā€™t rely on ā€œfeeling.ā€ We rely on the Apostolic Constituitions of the Church, the Traditions, Scripture and Magisterium.
 
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rlg94086:
So no one knows what Truth is. This is what you are saying. We each have to hope that the Holy Spirit has guided us individually to figure everything out.
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No no noā€¦donā€™t misunderstand meā€¦there is Truth out there, but that can also be colored by our own slants on the ā€˜truthā€™. When we claim to know all of this stuffā€¦it leads to problems.

What I am not certain of is that the Magisterium is necessairly the keeper of all things truthful. Letā€™s face it, the magisterium of the Catholic Church hasnā€™t always been a good steward of its Christ-given mandate. There have been moments in history where following the magisterium could have or did lead to disastrous results.
 
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frommi:
No no noā€¦donā€™t misunderstand meā€¦there is Truth out there, but that can also be colored by our own slants on the ā€˜truthā€™. When we claim to know all of this stuffā€¦it leads to problems.
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That is why we have the Magisterium, and not a smorgasbord of self-interpretation.
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frommi:
What I am not certain of is that the Magisterium is necessairly the keeper of all things truthful. Letā€™s face it, the magisterium of the Catholic Church hasnā€™t always been a good steward of its Christ-given mandate. There have been moments in history where following the magisterium could have or did lead to disastrous results.
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When someone claims to be Catholic and rejects the Magisterium, that always sets off the smoke detector in me kilts.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
 
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rlg94086:
If you are relying on your ā€œfeelingsā€, then I hope you get it right. It could mean eternal life or death.
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If one relys solely on the Church hierarchy, you better hope they get it right. Granted, there are many wise, holy, and educated men in the Church Hierarchy, but they are still only human, subject to error.
 
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buffalo:
Examples?
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Wellā€¦I think when we had two popesā€¦that was a problemā€¦

Maybe when it was a sin to charge interest on borrowed money?

When slavery was an ok thing?

The key to any of these things is that none were spoken of (as they say) ā€˜from the chairā€™.

The number of infallible teachings from the magisterium is pretty low when you think about it.

That doesnā€™t mean we ignore all the other stuff simply because it isnā€™t infallible, but lets face it, to act as though weā€™ve sown up the truth and put it in our back pocket is a horrible type of intellctual marxism.
 
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