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mikew262
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rlg94086
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You mean like this?
Matthew 16:
What does it mean to deny yourself?
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patg
Guest
You are correct when applying the acceptance to some things. I was really speaking generally (not just religeously). Here are a few examples of things I was thinking of:
- The belief accepted through the time of Jesus that disease and disformity were directly caused by one’s sins or the sins of one’s parents
- The acceptance of the three-tiered physical universe which lasted well after the time of Jesus
- The accepted fact that the male seed contained the entire baby with the woman serving simply as the incubator for the male generated child.
- The accepted commandments that it was an abomination to eat shellfish, or wear clothes of blended fabrics, or have two species of animal in the same field, or eat rare steaks, etc…
- Women should be paid less for doing the same job as a man
- Prohibition was a good idea
- Professional wrestling is a sport…
I believe we are much better off to have questioned and dissented from these universally accepted beliefs - that’s all I was saying.
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a_cermak
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So if folks here are so happy when dissenters leave the Church, why did I get so much grief from people for leaving the Catholic Church because I could not agree with Her? It seems I should have been embraced in my exitting.
I would never join an association that didn’t 100% accept gays or that reserved some offices just for women or just for men. I would consider that anathema to what I truly believe, what my core values are. I wouldn’t even like myself if those values were to change. Heck, I wouldn’t even be myself. I also wouldn’t join an organization where one person, not elected by all concerned, made all the decisions for the organization. Again, it goes back to core values, tolerance, democracy, acceptance.
So once I started thinking it through, I realized I didn’t fit in Catholicism. Now mind you, I believe in the Creeds, I believe in the Real Presence, the Communion of Saints, the seven sacraments… I believe in the efficacy of the Rosary and prayers to Our Lady.
I’m fortunate that I’ve found a Church in which I can worship and believe in full communion. Most of my friends, just about all of whom are liberals, stopped going to mass entirely.
I would never join an association that didn’t 100% accept gays or that reserved some offices just for women or just for men. I would consider that anathema to what I truly believe, what my core values are. I wouldn’t even like myself if those values were to change. Heck, I wouldn’t even be myself. I also wouldn’t join an organization where one person, not elected by all concerned, made all the decisions for the organization. Again, it goes back to core values, tolerance, democracy, acceptance.
So once I started thinking it through, I realized I didn’t fit in Catholicism. Now mind you, I believe in the Creeds, I believe in the Real Presence, the Communion of Saints, the seven sacraments… I believe in the efficacy of the Rosary and prayers to Our Lady.
I’m fortunate that I’ve found a Church in which I can worship and believe in full communion. Most of my friends, just about all of whom are liberals, stopped going to mass entirely.
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buffalo
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You are a lost sheep, so we are sad.
Your whole post was about what you want, not what God wants. It is most difficult for a modern day liberal to be a faithful Catholic.
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Jennifer123
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I appreciate you posting in, and while I’m glad you’ve found fellowship, I feel I have to reiterate my point about who we really are worshipping. Is it God in spirit and truth, or is it God in our own image?
The Church isn’t a democratic body, the pope is not president or CEO, and we must conform ourselves to His age, He doesn’t conform to ours. It’s not about me.
God Bless.
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buffalo
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The Catholic church does not have the authority to change any of Jesus’ teachings. You either accept them or you don’t. But you can change.
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Jeffrey
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I agree 100%.
Mijoy2:
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byHisGrace
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Penny Plain:
You just hit on something here. I’ve withheld commenting on this thread till your post. If you are a dissenter, it DOES effect your fellow Catholics in more ways than you can imagine. And by dissent I am not talking about just disagreement. I’m talking about disobedience. If one both dissents and disobeys on issues of faith and morals…ie, abortion is ok, ABC is ok, gay marriage is ok…etc, on something that the Church proclaims as sin, then what happens is scandal. And Christ had something to say about that. If some publicly visible pro-abortion leader was sitting next to my daughter in Church and went up to Communion, then that leader would be creating scandal for my child. If some gay activist railing against the Church about how it is denying gay people to marry in the Church, and that activist is also my kid’s junior high teacher, then he’s creating scandal. We are the Body of Christ and are to be one…not in political views…but one in the truth. When someone claims to be a Catholic and is not one in the truth, then its dishonest, its terribly disrespectful to those who try to remain obedient, and it damages and hinders those seeking the truth (adults)…and those learning it…(our children).
May God bless you.
Penny,
You just hit on something here. I’ve withheld commenting on this thread till your post. If you are a dissenter, it DOES effect your fellow Catholics in more ways than you can imagine. And by dissent I am not talking about just disagreement. I’m talking about disobedience. If one both dissents and disobeys on issues of faith and morals…ie, abortion is ok, ABC is ok, gay marriage is ok…etc, on something that the Church proclaims as sin, then what happens is scandal. And Christ had something to say about that. If some publicly visible pro-abortion leader was sitting next to my daughter in Church and went up to Communion, then that leader would be creating scandal for my child. If some gay activist railing against the Church about how it is denying gay people to marry in the Church, and that activist is also my kid’s junior high teacher, then he’s creating scandal. We are the Body of Christ and are to be one…not in political views…but one in the truth. When someone claims to be a Catholic and is not one in the truth, then its dishonest, its terribly disrespectful to those who try to remain obedient, and it damages and hinders those seeking the truth (adults)…and those learning it…(our children).
May God bless you.
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buffalo
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I agree, dissent affects the unity of worship and community. We are called to be one in truth.
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Isidore_AK
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Because we would rather see you change then leave. If one obstinately refuses to obey the Church, then one should leave…but it is better that one obey.
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Jennifer123
Guest
Excellent point, and one I think many of us forget from time to time.
I think a distinction should be made between indirect and direct incitement of sin, which is scandal. IMHO, I could be wrong, but scandal out of ignorance is indirect incitement.
Nonetheless, one should be mindful of scripture, Lk.17 for sure:
"And he said to his disciples, “Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung round his neck and he were cast into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin.”
Our actions have consequences.
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cathgal
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What obstinate altitude you have…
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cathgal
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Penny Plain:
For one, you can ask them such and such teachings of the Church and see how they answer. I’m sure you can determine if the answer is Catholic, liberal, or ignorant.
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patg
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I think this is by far the exception rather than the rule. And I only agree that the negative effect, if is occurs at all, is only to those too young to have applied mature reason to the whole process. If mature catholics are adversely affected by such discussions, maybe there is something lacking on both sides.
I agree with you but your examples are rare and unique to the extreme. I wouldn’t do what you are describing even if I were such a person of authority.
That’s what I’m searching for…
Nope, it shouldn’t affect you at all - it’s between me and God. And I will never tell you that you shouldn’t be obedient.
No, because if they are seeking the truth then we are in the same situation. How can anyone say it is good to be absolutely obedient to something when you’ve never heard it questioned and never had to defend it? Such controversy should make you stronger. But if it makes you start doubting, then maybe what you believed in wasn’t so “right” in the first place.
I agree it is not my business to lead children in any direction other than that determined by their parents.
Thanks
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patg
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I hardly think those are mutually exclusive categories - in any combination.
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cathgal
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Nah…it just that most of us got it all figured out quicker than others.
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patg
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Sorry… It seemed like a pretty good response in the context of the discussion I was replying to - which was something like total ignorance is more glorifying to God than the expression of any type of liberal thought. Are you in agreement?
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Isidore_AK
Guest
Sounds about right. Those who are ignorant, even though wrong, are not at fault. Those that know the Church’s teachings, and dissent from them, are in grave error. There is a difference…as in any sin (and dissent is a sin!) you must meet the requirements of a mortal sin (gravity, intent, & knowledge) to be guilty…
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JamesG
Guest
Hence Liberals have NO argument because Christ himself gave Peter the authority. In other words, the church has the right to lock the door for people who try to corrupt Christ’s word
Those who try to subvert or change the intent of the lord are in a state of sin.
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