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Nohome
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vern humphrey:
You might not want to share this bit of information with your spiritual advisor!
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Orionthehunter
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Penny Plain:
I’m sorry that you don’t feel that you can have a discussion w/ someone who you think believe themselves 100% right. I’ve had many enjoyable and productive personal, religious and political discussions with people where the primary goal was not to convince but to gain understanding. If you would read my posts, while I might not seem especially open to another point of view, I try to take the approach to explain where I’m coming from and the basis for my opinion. My goal is less to convince but to explain. I don’t seem to have been very successful convincing people in my life but I’ve seen the Holy Spirit be quite successful.
I try to apply this lesson everytime I speak that I heard in a homily one time. Remember when confronted w/ a person trying to find God (no matter how much you might disagree w/ their approach) to recognize that the Holy Spirit is already working within them. Be careful that what you say and how you say it might not only cause the person to close their heart to you but it might cause them to close their heart to the work of the Holy Spirit.
Penny, my question was rhetorical but now that you’ve answered it. . . .
I’m sorry that you don’t feel that you can have a discussion w/ someone who you think believe themselves 100% right. I’ve had many enjoyable and productive personal, religious and political discussions with people where the primary goal was not to convince but to gain understanding. If you would read my posts, while I might not seem especially open to another point of view, I try to take the approach to explain where I’m coming from and the basis for my opinion. My goal is less to convince but to explain. I don’t seem to have been very successful convincing people in my life but I’ve seen the Holy Spirit be quite successful.
I try to apply this lesson everytime I speak that I heard in a homily one time. Remember when confronted w/ a person trying to find God (no matter how much you might disagree w/ their approach) to recognize that the Holy Spirit is already working within them. Be careful that what you say and how you say it might not only cause the person to close their heart to you but it might cause them to close their heart to the work of the Holy Spirit.
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vern_humphrey
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“Spiritual advisor?”You might not want to share this bit of information with your spiritual advisor!
Is that anything like a priest?
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Gottle_of_Geer
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The RCC can be very unwelcoming - this is one of the drawbacks with a large Church: there are so many people, that letting a few - especially those who don’t “fit in” - fall by the wayside, is not difficult.
I don’t think there is anything deliberately malign about the off-hand behaviour you’ve described. I do think it probable that you aren’t thought of as important in yourself - your empty place in the pew can always be filled, and that will bring the the numbers of Catholics up to the old total before you left.Sounds bad, doesn’t it ?
If this guess about the thinking and attitudes is correct, it would fit with the tendency in RCism familiar from so many episodes of “Star Trek”
- the good of “the many” takes precedence over the good of “the one”.The difference with a Church - any Church - is that God is able to look as well and intimately after one person, as after a hundred million people: “Even the hairs of your heads are counted”. Churches, not being infinite in goodness and love, can’t. Which is why the pastoral practice of Churches leaves so much to be desired - all are trying to embody the perfect concern of God for each and every one of us, and all are conscious they are sure to fail. The RCC as much as any other - that’s one of the reasons we confess our sins of omission, individually and as a Church ##
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Mijoy2
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Penny Plain:
For many reasons this is a bad analogy. But I think it’s fitting. To be Catholic, you must dress in red (obey).
Penny, If I started a club called “dressed in red” and stated that all who joined the club must dress in red at all times, why would you insist on joing the club and dressing it blue? Especiallyy when you wouldn’t have to look very far to find a blue club?
For many reasons this is a bad analogy. But I think it’s fitting. To be Catholic, you must dress in red (obey).
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Troy7
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No I dont think liberals should leave the church if they agree with more doctines than not. Our salvation is ongoing and that goes for accepting all or some of the doctrines. I chuckle at folks who think they are better catholcis cause of their orthodoxy while downing other catholics who have doubts. Just cause someone doesnt accept all the churchs dictates doesnt mean anyone has the right to lump them into the pile of those who are trying to change the church from within. You guys need to stop with the two system…this or that, us vs them, black or white, way of looking at things. Theres more GREY area in this world than anything. Our job is to love and let God decide whats in someones heart.
It always reminds me of the person who tithes more and sees the other giving a penny and thanks God they arent like THEM.
I am sure there are liberal catholics who dont believe everything the church teaches but are more loving in their hearts than some catholics who say they accept all the rules but dont know how to love their fellow man…theres all kinds that make up his followers Jesus said.
Its sad that if someone doesnt “obey” they are told to leave…where should they go if they believe Jesus is in the Eucharist? Though I have issues with certain Popes…its a good thing they dont have the attitude of “obey or LEAVE” I sure hope nobody trying to make a career of prostlyzing has that outlook.
It always reminds me of the person who tithes more and sees the other giving a penny and thanks God they arent like THEM.
I am sure there are liberal catholics who dont believe everything the church teaches but are more loving in their hearts than some catholics who say they accept all the rules but dont know how to love their fellow man…theres all kinds that make up his followers Jesus said.
Its sad that if someone doesnt “obey” they are told to leave…where should they go if they believe Jesus is in the Eucharist? Though I have issues with certain Popes…its a good thing they dont have the attitude of “obey or LEAVE” I sure hope nobody trying to make a career of prostlyzing has that outlook.
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mikew262
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vern humphrey:
Thanks for the visual! I think why you have a smoke detector in your underwear is a worthy topic of a new thread.
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mikew262
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I agree. Good post.
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Penny_Plain
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If you’re not 100 percent with us, you’re against us? Hmm. Where have I heard that before?
Here’s the analogy that makes sense to me. It’s like a relationship with, say, my father. I don’t agree with everything he says. I don’t do everything he tells me to do. But I still love him and he’s my father always.
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buffalo
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Gee, that is a harsh judgement. Most Churches keep track of active parishioners through the envelope system. (many recommend even putting the envelope in without money). This is important when a letter of recommendation is needed to be a Godparent or something similar.
The Church won’t beg for you to come back. Faith is a personal choice, even though it was disappointing to the business manager.
Perhaps you could have spoken with the Pastor or Deacon if you were struggling.
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buffalo
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One either accepts the “full proposition” of the Catholic faith or not. However, we must understand that all are on a journey and some are further down the road than others may be at this time.
Now, obstinate denial because one thinks they know better can be troubling, however searching for the truth is a good thing, and we should encourage it.
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Orionthehunter
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Mijoy, this is a great analogy if you were Martin Luther but the Catholic Church was started by Jesus Christ and we are all called to be Catholic and I mean everyone.
Christ and our faith are to change us. To think otherwise is to succumb to the sin of Pride and Presumption. At the same time, we need to respect and listen to our conscience and exercise prudence.
If liberals are properly taking these issues to prayer and discernment, it is an issue between them and God. If they are exerting their will without regard to God’s will and plan, they have pride and presumption issue which is also an issue between them and God.
I can’t convince anyone of anything if they don’t want to listen to me but hte Holy Spirit can. We should be pullign those who have chosen to separate themselves whether by matter of sin, dogma, or discipline into the Church and not showing them the door.
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Beaver
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It is no longer will they but how will they.
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rlg94086
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Are you thinking of Matthew 12:30?
Penny Plain:
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Penny_Plain
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Hey, you’re good.
No, I wasn’t, actually, but it’s still a good point. The question then becomes whether one believes that the Church speaks infallibly for Him.
I don’t.
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Orionthehunter
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Great point Buffalo. I missed it. Our Evangelization Committee (not finance) gets a regular report regarding signficant changes in giving history. They don’t get it for the money part but as it gives them a signal that the family might be having a faith crisis, a financial crisis, or some other matter that the Parish might be helpful. Too often pride prevents people from calling Father or another parishioner when they are in need. This little signal gives these good people insight into maybe the Parish needs to instigate the conversation.
This being said, the person from this parish who made the call handled it horribly. At our parish, they committee usually says “so and so might be having problems. Does anyone know them well?” That person then looks for an opportunity to probe to see what is happening. There is never any mention of the stimulus was a change in giving habits.
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rlg94086
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Just havin’ fun with you…hope you don’t mind. Jesus also said in Mark 9:40:
amazon.com/gp/product/1882972546/qid=1142270644/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-4716518-3949442?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
It’s a great read about the scriptural basis for the papacy, but also included arguments from both sides to explain the Church’s stance. I don’t know if it would convince you, but it will give you a lot of insight into infallibility and it’s basis.
Penny Plain:
Jesus also said in Mark 9:40:You might try giving this a read: Jesus, Peter and the Keys
amazon.com/gp/product/1882972546/qid=1142270644/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-4716518-3949442?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
It’s a great read about the scriptural basis for the papacy, but also included arguments from both sides to explain the Church’s stance. I don’t know if it would convince you, but it will give you a lot of insight into infallibility and it’s basis.
Penny Plain:
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Chickamauga
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Actually, Jesus did once use a “GET OUT!” attitude…
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Money changers… morality changers… OUT, OUT, OUT!
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vern_humphrey
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Penny Plain:
You may recall that Jimmy Carter found himself unable to accept a ruling by the Southeren Baptist Convention, and did the honorable thing – he left the Southern Baptist Church.
You should pray for acceptance, and study those things you reject, that you may come to understand and accept.
A church is defined by its doctrine. If one will not accept the doctrine of your church, he is no longer a member – he has removed yourself.
You may recall that Jimmy Carter found himself unable to accept a ruling by the Southeren Baptist Convention, and did the honorable thing – he left the Southern Baptist Church.
You should pray for acceptance, and study those things you reject, that you may come to understand and accept.
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Mijoy2
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Penny Plain:
To take a stand against the church in these matters, is to deny the Holy Spirit. To disobey the Holy Spirit.
This isn’t a matter of, say, being a repulbican who happens to be pro-choice. It’s a matter of disagreeing with God.
Unless of course you do not agree with this fundemental teaching
either.
But Penny, the Catholic Church believes that matters of Faith and Morals (and I believe that is what we are discussing here) are not proposed by the church Hierarchy, they are sent forth via the church hierarchy by the Holy Spirit.
To take a stand against the church in these matters, is to deny the Holy Spirit. To disobey the Holy Spirit.
This isn’t a matter of, say, being a repulbican who happens to be pro-choice. It’s a matter of disagreeing with God.
Unless of course you do not agree with this fundemental teaching
either.
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