Should marijuana be legal?

[Charlemagne_II]

Scott
**
I would recommend you refrain from labelling people poor or inadequate Catholics. There is a precedent set at this forum against such behavior. Just a recommendation, mind you. If you want to go around strutting how much better a Catholic you are than others, or how inferior other people’s Catholicism is to yours, be my guest.**

Get off your high horse. The Bishops oppose abortion and same-sex marriage. The Libertarian Party officially supports both, not to mention the legalization of pornography and drugs.

You have attacked the Libertarian Party as if it knew nothing about true libertarianism. Well, I daresay some in that Party would be glad to tell you the same thing. I understand there are libertarians who are embarrassed by many of the positions of the Libertarian party. You may well be one of them. But you don’t need to invent a Tea Party to cover up those embarrassments. They are there for all to see … and oppose.

As a Catholic, you should be defending the position of the Bishops, who have thought all this through and don’t need you running interference with their attempts to persuade social reform and clean-up.

This was a much nicer world to live in before the liberals and the libertarians got a hold of it.

 

[cornbread_r2]

It is very disturbing to see so many people who smoke that stuff. I remember seeing people who were high on marijuana at events and it was like talking to a brick wall. They were slow to respond, failed to correctly answer basic questions and just had a vacant and vapid look on thier face. Quite sad. Why someone would want to reasonable smoke that stuff is beyond me…

Does any of that justify imprisoning them?

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Scott
**
I would recommend you refrain from labelling people poor or inadequate Catholics. There is a precedent set at this forum against such behavior. Just a recommendation, mind you. If you want to go around strutting how much better a Catholic you are than others, or how inferior other people’s Catholicism is to yours, be my guest.**

Get off your high horse. The Bishops oppose abortion and same-sex marriage. The Libertarian Party officially supports both, not to mention the legalization of pornography and drugs.

You have attacked the Libertarian Party as if it knew nothing about true libertarianism. Well, I daresay some in that Party would be glad to tell you the same thing. I understand there are libertarians who are embarrassed by many of the positions of the Libertarian party. You may well be one of them. But you don’t need to invent a Tea Party to cover up those embarrassments. They are there for all to see … and oppose.

As a Catholic, you should be defending the position of the Bishops, who have thought all this through and don’t need you running interference with their attempts to persuade social reform and clean-up.

As a Catholic, you should not be calling out other Catholic’s inadequacies, particularly when you have no idea what the other person believes anyway…

“Remove the plank from your own eye, then you can remove the splinter from your brothers”

And, maybe you didn’t read it, I posted the Catholic position on abortion AND euthanasia. I can post references to the Vatican documents if that makes you feel more comfortable. I also criticize the Libertarian Party because…they are a political party. I criticize the Republican Party and Democrat Party just as much…because none of them meet the Catholic political ideal. I am speaking of libertarianism as a political paradigm, a way in which one sees the world. I am completely against legislating moral principles, except where those principles involve the rights of other people. Government’s rightful place is to protect the rights of its citizens, no more, no less. Where the government oversteps this boundary, there are ALWAY moral repercussions. When the government gets into the business of providing for citizens in the form of entitlements, it must necessarily exploit one group of citizens to support another. Exploitation of a person violates their natural right to their person and their property, things that have been constantly defended by the popes, bishops, and Church Doctors (see St. Thomas Aquinas on natural rights).

With regard to legislating against pornography, prostitution, drugs, etc… I have always seen it as the lazy man’s way of evangelizing. Rather than getting out there and showing people why these things are wrong, just pass a law making it illegal. This method has never, ever, in the history of man stopped this immoral behavior. The only way that you can stop these things is through the grace of God. Since we cannot pass a law that distributes God’s grace as an entitlement provided the government, the only way it can be done is when we, as disciples of Christ, get off our butts and get into the world and make disciples of men, rather than voting for politicians to try to do it for us.

 

[Zundrah]

I just saw that this thread is in Apologetics and Moral Theology, how and why is it in two forums?

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

I just saw that this thread is in Apologetics and Moral Theology, how and why is it in two forums?

I believe that Apologetics discusses a particular, salient point of Catholic Theology and how to explain that point to non-Catholics (or poorly catechized Catholics). Example, the Immaculate Conception of Mary.

Moral Theology is a place for people to explore the more general theological ideas of problems facing society. And example being the best way for society to handle addictive drug use.

 

[Zundrah]

I believe that Apologetics discusses a particular, salient point of Catholic Theology and how to explain that point to non-Catholics (or poorly catechized Catholics). Example, the Immaculate Conception of Mary.

Moral Theology is a place for people to explore the more general theological ideas of problems facing society. And example being the best way for society to handle addictive drug use.

Okay.

 

[runwaymodel]

Does any of that justify imprisoning them?

It certainly does. It is illegal for a reason.

People who smoke this junk are aware that they will face legal consequences and jailtime plus a social stigma, yet they still do it. It is common sense, but some, I suppose, choose to ignore the law and do the wrong thing.

 

[runwaymodel]

With regard to legislating against pornography, prostitution, drugs, etc… I have always seen it as the lazy man’s way of evangelizing. Rather than getting out there and showing people why these things are wrong, just pass a law making it illegal. This method has never, ever, in the history of man stopped this immoral behavior. The only way that you can stop these things is through the grace of God. Since we cannot pass a law that distributes God’s grace as an entitlement provided the government, the only way it can be done is when we, as disciples of Christ, get off our butts and get into the world and make disciples of men, rather than voting for politicians to try to do it for us.

Making anything illegal is NOT an easy proccess. It has to be proven that it is unhealthy for society or harmful to a person, etc. Again, it is illegal for a reason. The day that people attempt to legalize marijuana (God forbid) will be a dark and sad day indeed.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Scott
**
“Remove the plank from your own eye, then you can remove the splinter from your brothers.”**

Then I’ll have to say it again: Get of your high horse and get that plank out of your own eye!

With regard to legislating against pornography, prostitution, drugs, etc… I have always seen it as the lazy man’s way of evangelizing.

Did you also mean abortion and same-sex marriage?

So now the bishops are lazy men?

You might try getting that plank out of your eye as well.

You seem to think you know more than the bishops. The Libertarians agree with you.

 

[nordskoven]

Marijuana is a chemical wild card. There is no “marijuana.” There’s varying grades and intensities, and hybrids of sativa and indica. Studies show that marijuana can induce or speed up the process of bi-polar/schizophrenia/manic-depression, and the younger the user the more likely an untoward reaction. That cutesy paranoia experienced by most users can become the start of a permanent nightmare for some. Marijuana strips out exotic brain fats that are hard to replace. Once they are gone, they are gone for a long time because our nutrition is just not that good, and indeed they may be gone for good in most instances.

Hemp oil from marijuana contains many of those exotic, delicate fats, so it would be wiser to look to the oil for nutritional value than to bother with that wild card high that could induce lethargy and paranoia on a more permanent basis. Marijuana stays in the system detectably for six weeks. It may be at work longer. This isn’t a put it down and it’s done drug. Those acutely aware of their mental processes as those who meditate intensely or work with precise mental protocols and disciplines refuse to use marijuana, saying it wipes out their mental edge. And just from personal experience, it is phony happiness, phony hunger, phony sexy, phony witty, phony sensitivity and real physical and mental apathy.

Marijuana can only be legalized when there is a cheap, reliable test and that is because those working in dangerous or demanding situations cannot afford to risk their lives and livelihoods on impaired workers; and those chosing to drive under the influence must be able to be inexpensively detected in the event of traffic stops as this now requires a blood test.

So for real people in the real world, legalized marijuana is a ticket to on-the-job injuries from fork lift or crane operators dropping stuff on their head and the like. I have personally worked on job sites with stoners who were not getting stoned before or at work but after work. Their mental processes are, nonetheless, so wretched that it is hard to get work done without guiding their every action. Not a pretty prospect from a safety or efficiency perspective, not to mention possibly potentiating mental illness.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Making anything illegal is NOT an easy proccess. It has to be proven that it is unhealthy for society or harmful to a person, etc. Again, it is illegal for a reason. The day that people attempt to legalize marijuana (God forbid) will be a dark and sad day indeed.

We, in this country, amended our Constitution (twice!) regarding the legality of alcohol. And there was a time in this country when all drugs were “legal” (not statutorily prohibited). You could, less than one hundred years ago, walk into a pharmacy and buy opium without a prescription. There are no rampant cases of legions of opium zombies stalking the streets. The day that “drugs” became illegal is when they became a problem to society. Look at Nixon’s “War on Drugs” and the abysmal failure it has been. It has cost YOU, the taxpayer, billions of dollars, has incarcerated millions of people for this “victimless crime” and created armies of well-armed, well-funded extremely violent drug cartels who behead people by the dozens to enforce their end of the bargain.

Who was the strongest opponent to the ending of Prohibition? Al Capone! Yes, Chicago Al funded politicians who promised to fight to keep Prohibition in place. Why? BECAUSE HE MADE MONEY BECAUSE OF IT. Drug use is a moral problem, a spiritual problem, a medical problem. By turning it into a legal problem we have severely compromised the legitimacy of our status as being “land of the free”. Freedom includes the right to be stupid…unless you are a moral dictator.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Marijuana is a chemical wild card. There is no “marijuana.” There’s varying grades and intensities, and hybrids of sativa and indica. Studies show that marijuana can induce or speed up the process of bi-polar/schizophrenia/manic-depression, and the younger the user the more likely an untoward reaction. That cutesy paranoia experienced by most users can become the start of a permanent nightmare for some. Marijuana strips out exotic brain fats that are hard to replace. Once they are gone, they are gone for a long time because our nutrition is just not that good, and indeed they may be gone for good in most instances.

Hemp oil from marijuana contains many of those exotic, delicate fats, so it would be wiser to look to the oil for nutritional value than to bother with that wild card high that could induce lethargy and paranoia on a more permanent basis. Marijuana stays in the system detectably for six weeks. It may be at work longer. This isn’t a put it down and it’s done drug. Those acutely aware of their mental processes as those who meditate intensely or work with precise mental protocols and disciplines refuse to use marijuana, saying it wipes out their mental edge. And just from personal experience, it is phony happiness, phony hunger, phony sexy, phony witty, phony sensitivity and real physical and mental apathy.

Marijuana can only be legalized when there is a cheap, reliable test and that is because those working in dangerous or demanding situations cannot afford to risk their lives and livelihoods on impaired workers; and those chosing to drive under the influence must be able to be inexpensively detected in the event of traffic stops as this now requires a blood test.

So for real people in the real world, legalized marijuana is a ticket to on-the-job injuries from fork lift or crane operators dropping stuff on their head and the like. I have personally worked on job sites with stoners who were not getting stoned before or at work but after work. Their mental processes are, nonetheless, so wretched that it is hard to get work done without guiding their every action. Not a pretty prospect from a safety or efficiency perspective, not to mention possibly potentiating mental illness.

In case you weren’t aware, private companies can still have zero tolerance policies, even if marijuana was decriminalized. I don’t think anyone anywhere is advocating that marijuana use be made into a Constitutionally-protected right.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Scott
**
“Remove the plank from your own eye, then you can remove the splinter from your brothers.”**

Then I’ll have to say it again: Get of your high horse and get that plank out of your own eye!

With regard to legislating against pornography, prostitution, drugs, etc… I have always seen it as the lazy man’s way of evangelizing.

Did you also mean abortion and same-sex marriage?

So now the bishops are lazy men?

You might try getting that plank out of your eye as well.

You seem to think you know more than the bishops. The Libertarians agree with you.

When you care to respond with more than arrogance, innuendo, and snide remarks, let me know. Until then, have a nice day.

 

[runwaymodel]

We, in this country, amended our Constitution (twice!) regarding the legality of alcohol. And there was a time in this country when all drugs were “legal” (not statutorily prohibited). You could, less than one hundred years ago, walk into a pharmacy and buy opium without a prescription. There are no rampant cases of legions of opium zombies stalking the streets. The day that “drugs” became illegal is when they became a problem to society. Look at Nixon’s “War on Drugs” and the abysmal failure it has been. It has cost YOU, the taxpayer, billions of dollars, has incarcerated millions of people for this “victimless crime” and created armies of well-armed, well-funded extremely violent drug cartels who behead people by the dozens to enforce their end of the bargain.

Who was the strongest opponent to the ending of Prohibition? Al Capone! Yes, Chicago Al funded politicians who promised to fight to keep Prohibition in place. Why? BECAUSE HE MADE MONEY BECAUSE OF IT. Drug use is a moral problem, a spiritual problem, a medical problem. By turning it into a legal problem we have severely compromised the legitimacy of our status as being “land of the free”. Freedom includes the right to be stupid…unless you are a moral dictator.

Then call me Miss Moral Dictator. There are laws in this land for a reason. Yes, America is the land of the free, but not the land of the idiots. Even children know right from wrong. I am sorry to be so harsh, but I cannot fathom why anyone in their right mind would want to legalize drugs. The ones who do drugs and want this legalized sound very misinformed and selfish to me as they apparently have no regard for society but would rather feed their nasty habit.

But wow, ‘the right to be stupid’? So are you saying you want people to do whatever they want? This world would fall into shambles. People would rob, murder, do drugs, etc–because who am I, or the law, to say that the previously mentioned is wrong? But it appears that we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Then call me Miss Moral Dictator. There are laws in this land for a reason. Yes, America is the land of the free, but not the land of the idiots. Even children know right from wrong. I am sorry to be so harsh, but I cannot fathom why anyone in their right mind would want to legalize drugs. The ones who do drugs and want this legalized sound very misinformed and selfish to me as they apparently have no regard for society but would rather feed their nasty habit.

But wow, ‘the right to be stupid’? So are you saying you want people to do whatever they want? This world would fall into shambles. People would rob, murder, do drugs, etc–because who am I, or the law, to say that the previously mentioned is wrong? But it appears that we will just have to agree to disagree.

We aren’t the land of the free anymore. We are the land of the regulated by the morality police. Thanks alot. unfortunately for you, science proves you wrong.

lewrockwell.com/orig11/rosenberg-p5.1.1.html
since most people write off Lew Rockwell as a “nutty libertarian rag”

sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/01/120116095821.htm

"Millions of human interactions were assessed during the study which included actions such as communication, founding and ending friendships, trading goods, sleeping, moving, however also starting hostilities, attacks and punishment. The game does not suggest any rules and everyone can live with their avatar (i.e. with their “game character” in the virtual world) as they choose. “And the result of this is not anarchy,” says Thurner. “The participants organise themselves as a social group with good intents. Almost all the actions are positive.”

 

[ahs]

… Yes, America is the land of the free, but not the land of the idiots. Even children know right from wrong…

That’s part of the point that is being made by supporters of legal marijuana. We all know right from wrong and can decide to take a substance, or not, based on what we know and understand and believe. Compare it to alcohol. Everyone knows and understands the right and wrong of alcohol, each according to his own beliefs, and can decide whether or not, and how much, to use it.

But wow, ‘the right to be stupid’? So are you saying you want people to do whatever they want? This world would fall into shambles. People would rob, murder, do drugs, etc–because who am I, or the law, to say that the previously mentioned is wrong? But it appears that we will just have to agree to disagree.

You have to admit that even God gives us the right to sin. It doesn’t make it right, but it is our freedom to choose. And it not a matter of doing what one wants…that must be put into perspective of who it affects. Robbery, murder, these are things that are done against another. Drug use, in and of itself without a legal issue attached, is a personal action that does not affect anyone. If it does become an action that affects someone else (just like drunk driving, or operating under the influence, giving bad example to peers/children) then there are laws in place to protect the potential victims. But someone sitting on a couch smoking his brain away…he DOES in fact have the theoretical right to do so. What it becomes then is a matter of “is indulging in this a sin…does it negatively affect me or anyone that depends on me, takes example from me, etc…”

 

[runwaymodel]

That’s part of the point that is being made by supporters of legal marijuana. We all know right from wrong and can decide to take a substance, or not, based on what we know and understand and believe. Compare it to alcohol. Everyone knows and understands the right and wrong of alcohol, each according to his own beliefs, and can decide whether or not, and how much, to use it.

You have to admit that even God gives us the right to sin. It doesn’t make it right, but it is our freedom to choose. And it not a matter of doing what one wants…that must be put into perspective of who it affects. Robbery, murder, these are things that are done against another. Drug use, in and of itself without a legal issue attached, is a personal action that does not affect anyone. If it does become an action that affects someone else (just like drunk driving, or operating under the influence, giving bad example to peers/children) then there are laws in place to protect the potential victims. But someone sitting on a couch smoking his brain away…he DOES in fact have the theoretical right to do so. What it becomes then is a matter of “is indulging in this a sin…does it negatively affect me or anyone that depends on me, takes example from me, etc…”

I absolutely agree with you about having the right, or option to sin (and that means smoking marijuana in this instance). We all do sin, we are not perfect, however, I would not want to purposefully continue to sin when I am aware that it is wrong yet choose to ignore that and continue to do so.

To say that someone doing drugs affects no one but that drug addict is not accurate. It affects his family, his job, his life, personality, society, etc. Yes, people technically have the right to choose to do whatever they want, but that is a scary justification in itself.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

I absolutely agree with you about having the right, or option to sin (and that means smoking marijuana in this instance). We all do sin, we are not perfect, however, I would not want to purposefully continue to sin when I am aware that it is wrong yet choose to ignore that and continue to do so.

To say that someone doing drugs affects no one but that drug addict is not accurate. It affects his family, his job, his life, personality, society, etc. Yes, people technically have the right to choose to do whatever they want, but that is a scary justification in itself.

So, lets make alcohol, coffee, nicotine, diphenhidramine, detromethorphan, etc… against the law.

Heck, sugar has been found to be as addictive as heroin. Lets outlaw that too. Lets outlaw EVERYTHING that people could abuse, because we know what’s best for them. I mean, freedom and free will are so last century.

 

[ahs]

I absolutely agree with you about having the right, or option to sin (and that means smoking marijuana in this instance). We all do sin, we are not perfect, however, I would not want to purposefully continue to sin when I am aware that it is wrong yet choose to ignore that and continue to do so.

To say that someone doing drugs affects no one but that drug addict is not accurate. It affects his family, his job, his life, personality, society, etc. Yes, people technically have the right to choose to do whatever they want, but that is a scary justification in itself.

Yes I totally agree with the fact that drug use can affect a person’s life and everyone in it. What I’m getting at is that it also might not. There would be no great negative affect if used in moderation, the same as, say, a guy that has a couple glasses of wine once in awhile. There is a big difference between being an addict and being a recreational user (whether it be drugs, alcohol, tobacco, gambling, etc…). MANY things taken to excess can lead to addictions that negatively affect a person and those in his/her life.

I don’t think anyone would argue that this drug should be legalized to appease the addicts. They would argue that it should be no more illegal than any other substance we have access to, like alcohol, tobacco, cloves (for smoking). All these can also be addictive and harmful if taken out of moderation.

By the way, I’m not advocating for legal marijuana. I’m just trying to tak an objective approach.

 

[runwaymodel]

So, lets make alcohol, coffee, nicotine, diphenhidramine, detromethorphan, etc… against the law.

Heck, sugar has been found to be as addictive as heroin. Lets outlaw that too. Lets outlaw EVERYTHING that people could abuse, because we know what’s best for them. I mean, freedom and free will are so last century.

Really sir? You are comparing caffeine to herion?

Again, people have the right and freedom to choose to do whatever they’d like, but if it is aganst the law (or common sense) be prepared to face the consequences.