Should our daughter be an altar girl??

[snhs]

I have been a scout leader for 25 years and understand Baden Powel’s reasoning for scouts. Originally, it was to train young men in basic survival skills to later become better soldiers for king and country. The movement to today, in the teen age group is co-ed and in many camps in this area the staff is at least a quarter female with female leaders. My point is that times change.

The argument that altar servers are grooming young men for the priesthood is no more true today than saying that the scouts are preparing young men to go to war.

The church changed and rigthtfully so. Each ministery on the altar has a function and training to perform that function. Altar servers are to assist the priest, a function that can be performed by either boys or girls.

You may claim to understand it, your comments suggest otherwise. I was always taught something along the lines of this description of Baden Powell’s work “for peace through the brotherhood of the Scout Movement”. Which was why the scouting movement avoided military trappings, with an emphasis on survival skills and the values of citizenship and common decency not to mention the internationalism of Scouting. Indeed I think I remember reading about his sadness when so many of the older Scouts went to war and didn’t come back.

Times may change, that does not mean that the ethos of a group and its founder should be thrown out to convenience societal change. It also seems the change you clearly support is more contentious than you make out as evidenced in this discussion which ends with the insightful comment “Lord Baden Powell would rollover in his grave. Boy Scouts for boys and Girl Guides for girls. There are some real good comments about about why, so no need to reiterate them here. (Have been in Scouting for many years)”.

Well to begin with Scouting was never about preparing young men to go to war. As to the rest of your point today I’d have to agree with you. Allowing Altar girls has almost compltetely severed the link between serving at the Altar and the Priesthood. Unlike you I don’t think that is a good think and I believe that we should be enedeavouring to restore it rather than persisting in a policy which manifestly fails as anything more than an exercise in equal opportunities.

And would you include the Priesthood in that? The Church itself has not changed in the way you seem to think. All that has happened is that it changed a discipline and it can change back at any time.

 

[snhs]

No, but you seem so determined to pound home the idea that just because girls are doing something, no boys will want to do the same.

That is incorrect.

Boys will do something IF THEY ARE INTERESTED in it. My sons all loved serving. There were certain boys they served with that they did not particularly care serving with, because these boys did not take it seriously. This one particular girl also served quite a bit with one of my sons…

Believe it or not, not all boys “hate” girls at this age. None of mine ever went through that stage.

Did I say no boys will want to? I don’t think I did.

Indeed, it simply reduces the number of boys and significantly dilutes the connection to the Priesthood.

How insightful.

Where did I say that all boys “hate” girls at this age? After all you did use quote marks, so perhaps you could direct me to the post where I used that word in such a context. And some parents/children are highly progressive and their boys are very much involved with Ballet and their girls love rugby. And I’m not saying there is anything intrinsically wrong with that. What I am saying is that when we need Priests it makes sense to use a ‘recruitment method’ which maximises the number of possible candidates. To fill up half of the slots in a ‘training programme’ with people who are not now nor ever shall be eligible is mad. If a high school has a limited number of places available for an exchange programme based in Germany they send the students who want to go and who are most likely to want to study German. They don’t send the people who have never studied German and wouldn’t be accepted on a German degree course. Similarly when it comes to the Church we should maximise the number of Altar boys because no matter how small a percentage of them become Priests it will still be higher than if they were Altar girls.

 

[FAB]

You may claim to understand it, your comments suggest otherwise. I was always taught something along the lines of this description of Baden Powell’s work “for peace through the brotherhood of the Scout Movement”. Which was why the scouting movement avoided military trappings, with an emphasis on survival skills and the values of citizenship and common decency not to mention the internationalism of Scouting. Indeed I think I remember reading about his sadness when so many of the older Scouts went to war and didn’t come back.

“Peace through brotherhood” is what it became, but Baden Powell’s inspiration was the wars he served in Africa and how he witnessed the need for young soldiers to know survival skills. His original book for the military, was written when he was still in the service, it became a hug success in England, spuring the Boy Scout Movement when he retired, when he wrote “Scouting for Boys”.

As to the rest of your point today I’d have to agree with you. Allowing Altar girls has almost compltetely severed the link between serving at the Altar and the Priesthood. Unlike you I don’t think that is a good think and I believe that we should be enedeavouring to restore it rather than persisting in a policy which manifestly fails as anything more than an exercise in equal opportunities.

I’m not certain why you would say it is a policy that has failed. I have stated in this thread how I have seen girls grow into young women with a very strong sense of their faith, partly because they have been servers. I would say that that is a success.

And would you include the Priesthood in that? The Church itself has not changed in the way you seem to think. All that has happened is that it changed a discipline and it can change back at any time.

More has change than just a discipline. The ideas of role of women in service to the church has changed. Remember, at one time, women were only allowed sanctuary when they got married. Perhaps that what some would like to return to, but it very unlikely.

Peace,
FAB

 

[Joe_5859]

I fully support going back to boys only serving at the altar.

However, since the Church allows girls to serve, you should let your daughter serve.

I think of all the posts I’ve seen on this subject (including my own), this is the simplest, humblest, most spot-on summation of the whole situation. Good work!

 

[snhs]

“Peace through brotherhood” is what it became, but Baden Powell’s inspiration was the wars he served in Africa and how he witnessed the need for young soldiers to know survival skills. His original book for the military, was written when he was still in the service, it became a hug success in England, spuring the Boy Scout Movement when he retired, when he wrote “Scouting for Boys”.

I’m not certain why you would say it is a policy that has failed. I have stated in this thread how I have seen girls grow into young women with a very strong sense of their faith, partly because they have been servers. I would say that that is a success.

More has change than just a discipline. The ideas of role of women in service to the church has changed. Remember, at one time, women were only allowed sanctuary when they got married. Perhaps that what some would like to return to, but it very unlikely.

Not quite. When he returned from Africa his books were already fairly popular with some schools and groups. The very fact he felt the need to refine those concepts in Scouting for Boys demonstrates that his purpose was different to teaching them military skills. In addition it was written in 1908, 2 years before he left the military. So obviously as well as being factually inaccurate you don’t quite get the philosophy which underlies Lord Baden-Powell’s work.

And you say that without looking at the cost of that change or at the fact that girls somehow grew “into young women with a very strong sense of their faith” long before they could become Altar girls. In fact it is the antithesis of ‘success’ when you look at the cost.

Unless I’m mistaken that too is a discipline. Perhaps someone who knows for sure can confirm that the allowance of Altar girls was in fact changing only a discipline? Interesting that you didn’t provide an answer to the question, indeed have avoided similar questions previously, so I shall ask it again “Do you include the Priesthood in that?”

 

[scylla]

Insulting to the girl’s own dignity and promoting a silly thinking of power?

When my daughter serves, she is serving Christ. She is reverent and wants to serve her Lord, Jesus Christ. She is not thinking about having Power. Where do you dream these things up. Altar serving is about serving the Lord, not about power. Betraying the priesthood. Oh please.

(please read my posts carefully, you wont see ridicule or sarcasm, but you should see logical consistant support for my posts)

Yes, it is insulting to a girls dignity to be put into a role in the Church which represents the path toward the Priesthood. The reason why girls serve now is because of the womens ordination movement which promotes the use of girls as altar servers to promote thinking which sees no difference between girls and boys.

It is an insult to the dignity of women\girls to put them in the position of men just to fulfill a desire to be like men. Here is an example to clarify…
Would it be insulting to dress up young boys in dresses with veils and pray along with the nuns at Mass?
It is both wrong with boys and girls to insult their gender by holding up another gender as better and something to imitate.

I am sure your daughter is serving Christ reverently and in service to Christ, this has absolutely nothing to do with my post at all or any of my previous posts against altar girls. Search my posts and I should have a very consistant point on this matter. I fully believe those girls who serve can serve and do serve out of love of Christ and His Church. I am sure He appreciates the love your daughter shows.

When we seek to use every single means to uphold the male priesthood of Christ and to promote vocations then we are doing right. Every little thing we do to decrease vocations, such as allow girl altar servers, feminize the Priesthood, contracept, not encourage frequent confession, and diminish the majesty\honor of the Priesthood. All those things not alone but each contribute to a lessening of vocations and the crisis we have in the Church today.

Of course those who want to have married Priests and female Priest want a shortage of Priests to promote their desire instead of serving Christ first.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[terryobrien80]

Originally Posted by Logan
*Our 11 year old daughter wants to be an altar girl, I am against it. I guess I’m “old school”, I think it should only be for boys and young men… *

Good for you!! Altar boys are suppsed to (hopefully) be being groomed for the priesthood. Altar girls cannot be. We need priests badly, and being an altar boy instills an interest in pursuing such a vocation.

Parents need to also tell there sons that the priesthood is a worthy vocation, instead of shoving the values of money, wealth and success down their throats, which makes the priesthood look like a last resort

 

[jmcrae]

Girls who want to be altar servers are not trying to “be like men” - there is nothing intrinsically “masculine” about serving at the altar - what they want is to serve Christ and their priest.

They are also not looking for “advancement opportunities” unless we are talking about those who are only doing it in order to have something to put down for their volunteer hours for Confirmation or for their religion classes at school - they are certainly not thinking of the priesthood.

If serving at the altar is supposed to be “training for the priesthood,” then someone should tell the priests, since I don’t know of any who see this as a recruiting ground for vocations. Instead, they seem to look more at boys who go to Adoration, participate actively in Youth Group, and go to daily Mass (whether serving or not).

 

[FAB]

Not quite. When he returned from Africa his books were already fairly popular with some schools and groups. The very fact he felt the need to refine those concepts in Scouting for Boys demonstrates that his purpose was different to teaching them military skills. In addition it was written in 1908, 2 years before he left the military. So obviously as well as being factually inaccurate you don’t quite get the philosophy which underlies Lord Baden-Powell’s work.

I’ll stand by what I said, his first manuels were for military scouts to aid them in Africa. The popularity of those manuels spured the later concept.

And you say that without looking at the cost of that change or at the fact that girls somehow grew “into young women with a very strong sense of their faith” long before they could become Altar girls. In fact it is the antithesis of ‘success’ when you look at the cost.

You need to explain what the “cost” of female altar servers is. It’s not less men going into the priesthood. I was a server before the change and it was never considered at that time some kind of priestly training.

Unless I’m mistaken that too is a discipline. Perhaps someone who knows for sure can confirm that the allowance of Altar girls was in fact changing only a discipline? Interesting that you didn’t provide an answer to the question, indeed have avoided similar questions previously, so I shall ask it again “Do you include the Priesthood in that?”

At this time in the Church, I do not include the priesthood. Unlike girls serving, that is not a discipline area of change. I do open the possibilty of permenant women deacons, since there does seem to be presidence for such in the early church.
Which by the way, who do you think were servers at the table of the last supper?
Peace,
FAB

 

[whatevergirl]

I agree with you jmcrae…my dd wasn’t trying to be like a boy, or a man. She is well aware that the priesthood is strictly for men, and doesn’t question it. Again, I can see arguments for both sides, and if the Church were to disallow girls from serving, then that would be fine with me, just the same as them serving.

But, it seems a stretch to say that this is the main recruitment method for boys to take an interest in the priesthood. If a boy is called to the priesthood, he will follow it, regardless if girls served on the altar. Just my two cents. There are other arguments, that hold more weight than this one, frankly, in my eyes–for one, not as many boys are attending Catholic schools, like they did say 40years ago even. Parents are not encouraging their sons to explore the priesthood, and even if they are, it seems that we live in a world now where the priesthood isn’t held in as high regard as it was back in the 60’s, even 70’s. Has feminism caused some rifts? Perhaps, not excluding that as a possibility for the decline in the priesthood…but girls serving on the altar is mixed in with a whole host of stronger reasons, as to the decline of the priesthood. I saw that mentioned in another post…forgive me, I can’t remember who said it. But, I tend to agree with whoever said it. lol

My parish back in PA had four priests…one was in his late 60’s, another in his 70’s and the other two were in their early 40’s. Only the one in his 60’s served as an altar boy. What did they ALL have in common however? They all attended Catholic schools, run by priests and nuns–from first through highschool.

I also don’t believe that if a boy/man is called to the priesthood, that anything will stand in his way of pursuing his goal. (if he truly feels called by God)

 

[LaLucia]

YES!!! Let her do it even if she changes her mind later on.

I am 68yrs. old and I was an “alter girl” on a cruise ship recently. It was fun assisting the cruise ship priest. I truly enjoyed it.

If I was a young girl I would love being an alter girl.I recently joined the Music group as a singer.

Recently when my 96yr.old dad passes away we had my sister’s grand-daughter be the Alter Girl. My sister was so happy seeing her assist the Priest during the Memorial service Mass. The whole family was also amazed that she was an alter girl and we were all very proud of her.
It made me proud of my family members that they were all very active as Lectors, Eucharistic servers, etc.
It was great to see that our grandchildren are very active in the Catholic Church.

PLEASE GIVE HER A CHANCE!!! It is an opportunity that shouldn’t be missed. Plus, she will never miss a Sunday Mass.

 

[terryobrien80]

.
**Read this article from This Rock magazine:
“JUST THE FACTS, PLEASE, ON ALTAR GIRLS”
By HELEN HULL HITCHCOCK
link:
catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9305fea2.asp

**

 

[snhs]

You need to explain what the “cost” of female altar servers is. It’s not less men going into the priesthood. I was a server before the change and it was never considered at that time some kind of priestly training.

At this time in the Church, I do not include the priesthood. Unlike girls serving, that is not a discipline area of change. I do open the possibilty of permenant women deacons, since there does seem to be presidence for such in the early church.

Which by the way, who do you think were servers at the table of the last supper?

Correction, it was never considered by you to be “some kind of priestly training”, and apparently it still isn’t. The Church however disagrees with you as seen in the response from the CDW on July 27th 2001 “In accord with the above cited instructions of the Holy See such an authorization may not, in any way, exclude men or, in particular, boys from service at the altar, nor require that priests of the diocese would make use of female altar servers, since “it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar” (Circular Letter to the Presidents of Episcopal Conference, March 15, 1994, no. 2). Indeed, the obligation to support groups of altar boys will always remain, not least of all due to the well known assistance that such programs have provided since time immemorial in encouraging future priestly vocations (cf. ibid.)” (Bold Added)

So just “at this time”, then? I think this rather demonstrates the angle that you are coming from on this issue and I find it interesting that one of the most vocal advocates of the ‘yes’ option also supports ordaining female deacons.

I think that chances are it was one of the Apostles who passed the Bread and Wine to Our Lord.

 

[jmcrae]

I think that chances are it was one of the Apostles who passed the Bread and Wine to Our Lord.

The servers at table at the Lord’s Supper were most likely female slaves. That is neither here nor there, though.

Mother Mary is now serving at the Altar of the Lord in Heaven, and as far as I know, she has never changed in status from being a married lay woman of the Church.

 

[snhs]

The servers at table at the Lord’s Supper were most likely female slaves. That is neither here nor there, though.

Mother Mary is now serving at the Altar of the Lord in Heaven, and as far as I know, she has never changed in status from being a married lay woman of the Church.

It may have been slaves, servants or servers of some description who put out the food initially, who brought the food to the table. However it seems likely that it would have been one of the Apostles who passed him the Bread or Wine when he asked for it.

Do you have an authoritative source for that? And as your clear aim is to equate Mary serving at the Altar of the Lord in Heaven to having Altar girls serve do you have a source which describes the tasks which she carries out? Our Lady is an excellent example though, during her time on Earth she allowed Our Lord to spend much of his time with a group of other men and didn’t foist her own company or that of eligible girls on him.

 

[otjm]

That may be true for your Diocese. In mine we normally start Altar serving after First Communion, currently 8 when I started 7. The fact remains at 11 they are just as likely to avoid ‘girls activities’.

They will if their parents decide to capitulate to the child’s attitudes, which many parents do; they are afraid their poor little boy won’t feel the necessary amount of “self esteem” if they don’t cater to his wishes and whims.

We are not aiming to get every single Altar boy to become a Priest nor has that ever been the aim, I think I see a straw man before me and the wind is starting to blow.

no straw man. Just simple fact.

Way to ignore the ‘right to free speech’ stuff. Not that the fact he would, hypothetically, be holding a view which the Church endorses as being valid would stop you.

aside form you sentance structure, I am not sure what you are referring to. I do hold the postion that simply because Rome has taken a position does not mean that the position is well researched. And that applies in particular to another issue, not related, so I won’t go off topic. If you want to know more pm me.

And for some reason I rather doubt many of those Nuns joining traditional orders were Altar girls.

Which I suspect is more related to your dislike of altar girls than any factual information. Mine is extremely limited, I will gladly admit; the young woman in our parish joined one of the orders that follows the Magisterium (they have a modified habit which clearly indicates they are professed religious). One case does not an arguement make. But it most certainly does not disprove that being a female altar server can lead a young woman in the direction of service to Church and God in adult life.

So all of those mothers and fathers who joyfully gave their blessing to their sons becoming Priests are now dismissed because it was only one out of X-number of children?

Your comment makes no sense to what I wrote. Parents are no longer encouraging their precious designer children to become professed religious or priests. And that comes from general observations, reported surveys, and some young men who have entered seminary/been ordained, as to parental pressure to not join.

If you want to see a city burning look at the Lambeth conference. Wonder what year they first allowed Altar girls?

The Anglican/Episcopalian problems run a whole lot deeper than whether girls served on the altar. I have read of the issues for some time, and given that there are at least three fairly clearly defined groups within that religious grouping, your comment is not of much use at all. They, within the most liberal grouping, parted company with tradition and Tradition on so many issues that female ordination is a separate issue having sourcing other than female altar servers.

The fact is that if a small proportion of young people are attending Mass it is all the more important to encourage boys to consider the Priesthood, you make it immeasurably more difficult to do that when you turn Altar serving into a demonstration of equal opportunities.

Hog wash. Any boy that wants to serve can do so; the issue of “not wanting to serve with a girl” has more to do with parenting than anything. As does vocation awareness.

 

[FAB]

.
Read this article from This Rock magazine:
"JUST THE FACTS, PLEASE, ON ALTAR GIRLS"
By HELEN HULL HITCHCOCK
link:
catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9305fea2.asp

Try this from John Paul II instead
Pope John Paul II to Gathering of Altar Servers

usccb.org/liturgy/innews/082001.shtml

It’s a little more current.

Peace,
FAB

 

[FAB]

Correction, it was never considered by you to be “some kind of priestly training”, and apparently it still isn’t. The Church however disagrees with you as seen in the response from the CDW on July 27th 2001 “In accord with the above cited instructions of the Holy See such an authorization may not, in any way, exclude men or, in particular, boys from service at the altar, nor require that priests of the diocese would make use of female altar servers, since “it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar” (Circular Letter to the Presidents of Episcopal Conference, March 15, 1994, no. 2). Indeed, the obligation to support groups of altar boys will always remain, not least of all due to the well known assistance that such programs have provided since time immemorial in encouraging future priestly vocations (cf. ibid.)” (Bold Added)

The important word is encouraging, not training.
See my previous link for a message from John Paul II to servers, who not only indicated this encouraging for young men for by the same reasoning encouraging young women into religious life.

Peace,
FAB

 

[terryobrien80]

Try this from John Paul II instead
Pope John Paul II to Gathering of Altar Servers

usccb.org/liturgy/innews/082001.shtml

It’s a little more current.

Peace,
FAB

Nice, but not Ex`Cathedra. I shall investigate what Vatican II says, since it says many things that are quite the opposite of what people claim it says.

 

[Aramis]

You need to explain what the “cost” of female altar servers is. It’s not less men going into the priesthood. I was a server before the change and it was never considered at that time some kind of priestly training.

The nuns (DSP and OP) I grew up near all considered it grounds to ask about a vocation. An open door, if you will.

I do open the possibilty of permenant women deacons, since there does seem to be presidence for such in the early church.

the Deaconess was not a deacon; it was a separate role. She may have been ordained, as the Greek Orthodox now do, or may have been merely installed, as the Coptic Orthodox now do. And while it’s been criticized, it’s not dropped them from communion with the other churches in their respective communions.

If the church were to reinstitute the deaconess, it would need to be clear that it was not the same as a male deacon. A permanent female acolyte with permission to baptize seems to be what their role was, IMO, and would be a viable and valid institution (but not ordination).