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FAB
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I agree, but the church is still investigating. If ever ordained a female deacon should have all the rights of her male counterpart, since the role a permanent deacon is not a step to the priesthood.
Peace,
FAB
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Peace,
FAB
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FAB
Guest
So you doubt a direct quote from the pope?
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terryobrien80
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JP II was a softie - a great pope, but a softie. That ain’t no secret. He was probably being nice to the kids that day.
Have you ever seen an altar girl at a Mass at St Peter’s?
By the way: There are things that are “allowed” but are often abused. Prime example: Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharsit, wrongly called “eucharistic ministers.” They are only to be used in Extraordinary circumstances, if a priest can’t handle the volume. (Hence the name “Extraordinary Minister of the Eucharsit.”) But, often, you will see an army of them at every mass, regardless of the number in attendance. Is it “allowed”? Yes. Is it an “abuse”? Absolutely.
We need priests!! And we need altar boys who may develop an interest in being priests after serving at the altar. People need to learn how to develop interests in their proper roles, and stop letting modern politically correct thinking infect the Church
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terryobrien80
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delete
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FAB
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That is certainly condensending of you. The pope was making a specific address to both boy and girl servers and thanking them and he’s just being nice.
Instead of listening to words of the leader of church, you put the writings of a writer with a specific agenda above him. How interesting.
St. Peter’s has no shortage of priest, transitional deacons and siminarians to surround the pope, so theres no comparrison.
Peace,
FAB
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snhs
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As has been pointed out not Ex-Cathdra.
And if we are looking to keep things up to date how about this. To provide an extract
"Today, seeing you here before me in St Peter’s Square, I think of the Apostles and I hear Jesus’ voice saying to you: I do not call you servants but friends; abide in my love and you will bear an abundance of fruit (cf. Jn 15: 9, 16).
I ask you to listen to this voice! Christ did not only say this 2,000 years ago; he is alive and saying it to you now. Listen to his voice with great openness; he has something to say to each one. Perhaps he is saying to some of you: “I want you to serve me in a special way as a priest, thus becoming my witness, being my friend and introducing others into this friendship”.
And its also worth noting one of his other comments “In 1935, more than 70 years ago, I began as an altar boy; consequently, it has been a long journey on this path.”. Note that he uses ‘began’, he is saying it has been a long journey which he started, or began, as an Altar boy and now he is Pope. Obviously Pope Benedict considered it part of the process he took to Holy Orders.
Training: defined by Wikipedia as “The term training refers to the acquisition of knowledge, skills, and competencies as a result of the teaching of vocational or practical skills and knowledge that relate to specific useful competencies.”
Now by being Altar boys they obtain knowledge about the Liturgy, the skills to serve and the competency to do so well and faithfully. Now that is imparted to them by the tuition in how to serve which comes from the Priest or from older servers who have previously been taught this knowledge, skills and competence. These are all formerly part of the minor orders, which were part of the progression to the Priesthood. They are in short vocational skills which directly relate to what the Priest himself does in celebrating the Mass. In short it fits the definition of training precisely.
See above for a message from Pope Benedict XVI to Altar servers, where he mentions being an Altar boy as part of his journey to becoming Pope.
Actually you’ve not read what Pope JPII said, what you wanted him to say, maybe, but not what he actually said. Here is the way he opens the paragraph “I have spoken of friendship with Jesus. How happy I would be if something more sprang from this friendship!” In that Audience the vocations he mentions the Priesthood, religious life and marriage are all linked by him to that friendship, not to being Altar servers as you are trying to claim. So in short it does not constitute anything like the same weight as the direct link the CDW document drew between being an Altar boy and its assistance in encouraging vocations to the Priesthood.
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jmcrae
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Since this happened prior to Vatican II, he was an ordained Acolyte, and not a lay person, at that time. They did not use laymen in service on the Altar, back in those days. He was, indeed, on the path to the priesthood as an ordained member of the clergy, in those days.
Today, in contrast, lay persons are permitted to serve on the Altar - today’s altar server is not an ordained Acolyte, usually, though.
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snhs
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Not condescending by my reading. I think everyone who has grown up during Pope John Paul II’s Pontificate has a great deal of affection for him and for his memory.
I don’t think the Pope is strictly speaking “the leader of the Church”. And no he wasn’t, it was addressed to Altar servers, not Altar boys and Altar girls.
There is a comparison. The Altar servers in St Peter’s are all boys who live in a residential school on site. Furthermore neither Pope has given permission for girls to serve in the Diocese of Rome, that should tell you something about how they view allowing Altar girls.
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FAB
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Wonderful quote, but doesn’t have much to do with having female servers.
The same oportunity is still open to young men, but as in the JPII quote, young women may also find a vocational life.
I don’t know when you may have last served, but the role of and alter server is very short of a vocational skill that would lead to priesthood. But as I said earlier, it does help bring a boy or girl closer to Jesus and gives them a fuller understsanding of the Eucharist.
The address was specifically to altar servers, and yes, he was encouraging a closer relationship to Jesus, through their service.
So short, I do think that the pope’s words hold more wieght than this web site.
Peace,
FAB
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FAB
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This may be a surprise to most Catholics, for that matter priest, bishops and cardinals. If the Pope, strickly speaking, not the leader of the church, and in direct line from chair of St. Peter, who is?Peace,
FAB
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snhs
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To avoid embarrassing you I suggest you go and have a look at facts. Because what you have just said is wildly inaccurate.
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jmcrae
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I know the facts - lay persons, both male and female, were forbidden to serve at the Altar prior to Vatican II. The position of Acolyte was a minor order in the heirarchy of the priesthood - acolytes were not considered to be lay people.
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snhs
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It has everything to do with it actually. Here the Pope was addressing a crowd of eager Altar boys and girls, he mentions specifically the possibility of some going on to become Priests, yet doesn’t consider the link between Altar girls and becoming nuns worth mentioning.
When has anyone said young women may not also find a vocational life?
Sunday, actually. I’m guessing that may be more recently than most of the people commenting here. A Priest must know the order of Mass well, sounds like something he needs to know which can be learnt by being an Altar boy. A Priest must be aware of what the Altar boys are meant to be doing and what he is meant to do, what better way to learn those skills than by being an Altar boy. This is part of the training they need. Why do you think the functions Altar boys perform originates from a Minor Order?
He said “Thus, you, altar servers, are called in particular to be young friends of Jesus. Be determined to go deeper and to cultivate this friendship with him. You will discover that in Jesus you have found a true friend for life.” That does not construe what you claimed initially. To begin with it actually applies to everyone, we are all called to be friends of Jesus. You don’t have to have been an Altar server before Our Lord calls you to his friendship. He even says “to go deeper and cultivate it”, the link he creates to these vocations is not to Altar serving but to having a deep friendship with Jesus.
And actually you have got it wrong. The quote I provided and the website link to a document which was issued by the CDW, one of the Vatican Congregations, which was written in response to a dubium (question) from a Bishop regarding the initial permission to allow Altar girls. When that response is issued it is an official clarification of what it means, unlike a Pope’s ex cathedra statement.
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terryobrien80
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I’m waiting…
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snhs
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You are wildly inaccurate.
In the Catholic Encyclopedia entry for Acolyte, here, it explicitly mentions “Altar boys are often designated as acolytes and perform the duties of such”, they were not ordained as acolytes simply designated to perform their duties when they were not enough acolytes available. It adds later that “According to the ancient discipline of the Roman Church the order of acolyte was conferred as the candidate approached adolescence, about the age of twenty”, Pope Benedict would have been 8 when he served his first Mass.
The Arch confraternity of St Steven was created in the first decade of the 20th Century preempting VII by 55 years or so. The Encyclopedia I quoted the above from was published between 1907 and 1912, again preempting VII by 50 years or so. In short either you’re wrong and lay people were filling in for Acolytes long before VII or somehow or other this article predicted it 50 years in advance of the changes.
The fact is that lay men and boys have been filling the role of Acolytes for centuries, more or less since the formal Seminary process took off.
And if you need further proof that you were wrong there’s this gem from Pope Gelasius as related by Pope Benedict XIV “Pope Gelasius in his ninth letter (chap. 26) to the bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbade it in his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: “Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry.” We too have forbidden this practice in the same words in Our oft-repeated constitution Etsi Pastoralis, sect. 6, no. 21.”".
Now Pope Gelasius was elected in 492 A.D. dying on November 16th 496 A.D., which would have preempted when you claim lay people were first allowed to serve by 1512 years.
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nightwalker
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Since snhs is too nice: The clerical state was fully entered into with the sub-diaconate. Boys served at the altar frequently before Vatican II.
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otjm
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Perhaps in Canada things were run differently. However, here in the US, boys were most certainly permitted to serve at the altar, and were not either ordained to the Office of Acolyte, nor was the Office of Acolyte conferred on them; it was one of the minor orders conferred on seminarians, and not with a great deal of ceremony.
I was one of the altar servers; we started in 6th grade.
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