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Lepanto
Guest
In reference to priests wearing their clerics, you compared them to the hypocritical Pharisees by saying:
From post #75:
From post #77:
Should priests wear their clerics when out grocery shopping? Getting a haircut? Seeing a movie? Walking the dog? Away on vacation?
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From post #75:
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JonathanEdwards
Guest
That’s right. I compared them to the Pharisees, who were considered to be hypocritical.
However, I compared them to the Pharisees in the context of their dress, not their hypocrisy.
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Lepanto
Guest
Jesus was not a fashionista from Paris. He didn’t go around critiquing people’s dress. The reason that He even mentioned the Pharisees’ dress is because they chose their clothes out of hypocrisy.
So again I ask, how do you know that the priests that you saw were wearing their clerics out of hypocrisy? Did you ask them what their motivations were?
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JonathanEdwards
Guest
OK. I’ll try to explain this to you one more time, slowly: I NEVER SAID THEY WERE WEARING THEIR COLLARS OUT OF HYPOCRISY.
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Lepanto
Guest
Then why did you bring up the issue of Jesus’ rebuke to the Pharisees in the first place?
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Jean_Anthony
Guest
Please stay on topic, everyone. Take apologetical arguments to the Apologetics forum. Thank you all.
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JonathanEdwards
Guest
I didn’t.Then why did you bring up the issue of Jesus’ rebuke to the Pharisees in the first place?
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armywife
Guest
I think it’s important. Good priest friends of ours say they have been asked to hear a person’s confession on a plane or terminal while traveling. A few times it’s been people who haven’t been to church in years. Once they had just awful turbulence and people were scared and the family next to him asked him to say the rosary with them. Those things would have never happened if they were traveling in civvies.
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Pro_Domina
Guest
I agree that they need to rest. But that means acting morally.This only applies to secular priests. Priests in religious orders and religious congregations do not get a salary. The institution (parish, hospital, school, etc) works out a contract with the community and gives the community a monthly allowance. The community disposes of it as it sees fit. There are religious communities whose members may never take a vacation. They are allowed to visit their parents or siblings once a year and that’s it. They are not allowed to go anywhere else. This is internal.
Diocesan priests get paid a salary for which they pay taxes and FICA. The IRS classifies secular priests as self-employed. Their taxes and FICA comes completely out of their monthly salary. So does their vacation money and money for clothing, haircuts etc.
This is the reason why bishops rarely intervene in the life of their secular priests when they’re not on duty. For ecclesial and civil purposes, they are secular men, even though they are priests.
We the laity don’t always understand these things and tend to get too involved or speak out of turn when it comes to secular priests or religious orders. We must educate ourselves first.
Thank you for the citation. It helps people understand the Church’s understanding of the secular priest and his rights as a citizen of the Church and the world.
JR
Now many priests essentially do as everyone else in the world.
What do most people do these days? Sin.
They stop celebrating mass, stop dressing as a priest should, stop praying (if they ever do), start partying and well I think you get the idea.
For proof you need’t go to far. Apart from the sacresty conversations and gossip, you will have their own co-workers tell you. If you are friendly enough, they will tell you.
Then if you go higher, you have their bishops tell you.
Then you have Rome. In Rome everyone knows who is who.
And they will tell you the stories of the things they have to deal with.
But that is why there are many writers and even saints who say that the concept of what secular clergy should be is wrong.
St. John Bosco’s mother told him he’d end up in Hell if stayed secular. And he narrates of the things he realized that secular priests need to avoid so they don’t end up in Hell as well.
Because while it is correct and neccesary for a person to mingle and be a social person (go to social events etc.), given they are morally correct, it is not so for a priest. He is not in search for a wife, he does not have a carreer to follow, he does not need to be a man of the world, but rather work in it. The term secular does not mean he is free to act as any other man except in celebacy. Not at all.
So a vacation must be different as well.
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ethelzguy
Guest
This sounds like a great deal of gossip and vicious speculation in and of itself.
For “proof” I should go by “sacristy conversations and gossip” as well as heresay from “co-workers”?
Of course priests sin. They go to confession like everyone else. Priests are subject to temptation just like the rest of us. That doesn’t deny them the right to go on vacations or wear street clothes.
Who are you, or I, (or any other lay person) to dictate how a priest should dress in public?
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nsper7
Guest
Personally, as one who is discerning a call to Holy Orders, I’d be one of those that wants to wear his clerics everywhere.This sounds like a great deal of gossip and vicious speculation in and of itself.
For “proof” I should go by “sacristy conversations and gossip” as well as heresay from “co-workers”?
Of course priests sin. They go to confession like everyone else. Priests are subject to temptation just like the rest of us. That doesn’t deny them the right to go on vacations or wear street clothes.
Who are you, or I, (or any other lay person) to dictate how a priest should dress in public?
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Pro_Domina
Guest
Who says I am just a lay person? Who says I am not of the ecclesiastical realm?This sounds like a great deal of gossip and vicious speculation in and of itself.
For “proof” I should go by “sacristy conversations and gossip” as well as heresay from “co-workers”?
Of course priests sin. They go to confession like everyone else. Priests are subject to temptation just like the rest of us. That doesn’t deny them the right to go on vacations or wear street clothes.
Who are you, or I, (or any other lay person) to dictate how a priest should dress in public?
Any how even if I was John Doe, I have the right to say the truth regardless who it is as long as I keep the respect and dignity of that who I speak to and it is of greater good.
A prophet is in an extraordinary way greater than a bishop or even a pope because of his vocation to make God’s will done. Yet he must be submissive to them.
Being a priest does not make you a lawmaker, but a judge.
You cannot say that in virtue of Holy Orders that the priest is not to be judged for what he does, or that he has sacraficed enough to get some “liberty”.
Anyhow, Canon law require the priestly vestments.
It needn’t mentioned that trad “Soccer and Saturno” games are going overboard. But still requires dignity.
And being a sinner does not mean that you have the right to sin.
Much less mortal sin. A priest must be much more conscience of that. If not he takes his flock to Hell with him.
Holy priests, holy people.
There is a reason why the Middle Ages was full of saints, even rich and powerful ones.
Because there was saintly clergy to guide them.
What do you do with dioceses that have reported more than 70% of priests living uncelebate “lifestyles”.
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EasterJoy
Guest
There is nothing wrong with this, nor anything wrong with changing your mind once it becomes your turn to do it. There is a reason the choice is left to you.
You are going to maintain a humble attitude towards those who have been serving for several decades longer than you have, but who dress in clericals less often, though, right? There is nothing more becoming on a young priest than a humble attitude towards his elder brothers.
I don’t mean to imply that you give a different impression…let’s just say that it happens. It is a lot like the new mom who is going to do everything better than her mom, her grandma, and her aunts. She’s just begging for a child who refuses to potty train.
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EasterJoy
Guest
Holy priests, holy people, yes, but I think the Middle Ages were full of abuses of nearly every kind imaginable, including a high number of priests who found celibacy more of a challenge than they were willing to live with. I would not romanticize the era too much.
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Pro_Domina
Guest
Sin always exists, but in some eras less.
Pius XII said that was the age in which the laws of the governments reflected those of the Gospel.
Remember history is told by the victors.
The Devil is the prince of this world of sin.
And in the middle ages Christ reigned more, and not only in the hearts, but in the temporal world as well.
Today the Holy Spirit has taken refuge in the hearts of very few.
Our Lady in La Sallete said that punishments would come because of our decadent priests.
Now even in the decadent Renasaince, Our Lord refered to a decadent Louis XIV as “my friend” .
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ethelzguy
Guest
This is the second time in this thread that you have made the claim that Canon Law requires priests to wear “priestly vestments”.
For the second time, I request that you share with us where this is stated as such in Canon Law.
It might help clear things up.
We are all entitled to our opinions. However, because it is our belief or opinion does not make it binding on the Church.
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Pro_Domina
Guest
Canon 284 - Clerical Dress
On November 18, 1998, the Latin Rite de iure members of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops approved complementary legislation for canon 284 of the Code of Canon Law for the Latin Rite dioceses of the United States.
The action was granted recognitio by the Congregation for Bishops in accord with article 82 of the Apostolic Constitution Pastor Bonus and issued by decree of the Congregation for Bishops signed by His Eminence Lucas Cardinal Moreira Neves, Prefect, and His Excellency Most Reverend Franciscus Monterisi, Secretary, and dated September 29, 1999.
Complementary Norm: The National Conference of Catholic Bishops, in accord with the prescriptions of canon 284, hereby decrees that without prejudice to the provisions of canon 288, clerics are to dress in conformity with their sacred calling.
In liturgical rites, clerics shall wear the vesture prescribed in the proper liturgical books. Outside liturgical functions, a black suit and Roman collar are the usual attire for priests. The use of the cassock is at the discretion of the cleric.
In the case of religious clerics, the determinations of their proper institutes or societies are to be observed with regard to wearing the religious habit.
As President of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops, I hereby decree that the effective date of this decree for all the Latin Rite dioceses in the United States will be December 1, 1999.
Given at the offices of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops in Washington, DC, on November 1, 1999.
Most Reverend Joseph A. Fiorenza
Bishop of Galveston-Houston
President, NCCB
Reverend Monsignor Dennis M. Schnurr
General Secretary
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ethelzguy
Guest
Please cite your source, as I do not find this on the below source.
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM
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Pro_Domina
Guest
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THurifer2
Guest
I personally think priest should always wear their clerics…
especially when swimming laps at the pool or running a marathon.
Maybe they could get orange clerics for hunting?
Oh cool how about Roman collar cycling jersyes?!!!
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