Should prostitution be legalized?

[Alex337]

Alex337:

@blackforest - I’m unsure how sex work doesn’t fall under the realm of a sex positive interest? Also, women also hire sex workers.

Point well taken, but sex work is about what the client wants.

Certainly. Though you would be surprised by how many “Johns” actively want to please the sex worker, it’s actually rather uplifting at times to hear. Part of this no doubt has to do with the legal environment the people I know work in.

In a legal brothel the workers see their potential clients ahead of time (through cameras fitted in the waiting room) and may choose not to go to them, they then get to speak with the potential client in advance about what services they desire; at any time the sex worker may decide not to pursue this client.

As with any service industry job it is about the client. But where sex positivity comes in is actively trying to make the work environment positive for the employee. This doesn’t mean a sex positive feminist believes that the sex worker should find carnal pleasure with every client. But it does mean supporting a means of making the industry safe, respectful and, well, “positive”.

This is why I support legalising prostitution, and why sex positive feminists are often also in favour of legalised prostitution; because it allows for the safety nets to be put in place that create a consensual environment.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

Though you would be surprised by how many “Johns” actively want to please the sex worker, it’s actually rather uplifting at times to hear.

Part of it probably has to do with stroking their own egos.

 

[blackforest]

How would you respond to the link that @Lea101 posted above? Does Legalized Prostitution Increase Human Trafficking? - ScienceDirect

 

[Alex337]

How would you respond to the link that @Lea101 posted above? Does Legalized Prostitution Increase Human Trafficking? - ScienceDirect

I believe I already did above. I hope you don’t mind if I re-quote my reply, I understand this thread is quite long at this point

"I don’t think making it illegal has ever stopped it from happening, all it seems to do is force otherwise law abiding people into a harsh situation. I far prefer knowing my friends in the sex work industry are protected by the law, by their unions, by the Fair Trade and Fair Work industries than being unable to turn to such organisations for help.

I’ve read your article but the problem seems to be, as summed up here (FAQ: Will Legalizing or Decriminalizing Prostitution Decrease Sex Trafficking? - End Slavery Now) that “No prostitution-related policy or model sufficiently eliminates any of these root causes.”

People trafficking is a problem, a terrible one, but its roots are something that need to be addressed rather than one of the industries that people are forced into. Remember, human traffickers also force people into slavery in textile industries, in manufacturing plants, in cleaning and other menial labour industries. Is the solution to this to make all such jobs illegal?

Rather I think we need to look into the root of this problem. Which I admit is a very large issue and not one that would be quickly fixed. I imagine it would require greater work between countries, especially as many of these people come from financially disadvantaged countries. I imagine this is a discussion for another thread though? One concerned with assisting the poor, with immigration, and with global unity?"

**
@theAmazingGrace - Quite possibly they are stroking their own egos. Some don’t even engage in the act and simply end up talking. It’s a bit sad that some folks need to employ people for such slight human interaction but that’s sometimes the way of things. And I still think it’s nice to hear that some of these folks care about being kind to their service provider. But then I also think it’s super nice when a client at a restaurant is nice to their waiter; people just aren’t considerate to those in the service industry all too often.

 

[blackforest]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I need to move on with my Saturday. It’s morning on my side of the globe. I’d love to continue this later, though.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

And I still think it’s nice to hear that some of these folks care about being kind to their service provider.

Yeah. Treating women like human beings is always welcome regardless of the context.

 

[Alex337]

Yeah, I would agree that it doesn’t address the root, but I also believe that legalizing it doesn’t either and it can exacerbate the problem. Reading articles and a few posts seem to show that if the market increases, so does human trafficking. But I would also add that this isn’t my area of expertise (yet, lol) so I’m open to hearing both sides.

Besides poverty, I think one of the root causes is also sexual corruption. There’s just too many perverts out there. Porn has certainly affected it and is responsible for cultivating such disorder, which is why I detest such industries. It may empower a bunch of people but it has ruined the lives of so many others.

I am for the legalisation of it because it provides a safety net for those who do not enter the industry through illegal means. I believe the entire industry needs to be better overseen in general, as with all industries that see human trafficking. So while legalising it can have adverse impact on human trafficking it still helps those who have legally entered the profession.

I think that it needs to be more regulated. And that immigrants need to be assisted far more just in general. I know in Australia we have a problem with detaining illegal immigrants in very, very harsh environments and this means that people who were trafficked into the country are unable to turn to the law for the protection they should have. And I think in many places where trafficking exists this is a problem.

Keeping sex work illegal means these exploited people are often caught sooner. But all too often it means they are just sent back to the place they were fleeing. Some lucky few will be allowed to remain but I know Australia rarely allows this unless they can prove refugee status (and we have made that exceptionally difficult).

So while making it illegal would result in fewer people in our country who have been trafficked in I am left to wonder whether it just means that the problem has been moved to a poorer country? I know I’m over thinking this no doubt.

 

[Alex337]

Certainly, it’s been a lovely discussion.

 

[Lea101]

So while legalising it can have adverse impact on human trafficking it still helps those who have legally entered the profession.

Yeah but that’s the thing. I would view these victims as more important than the ones who wanted to join the industry themselves? Unless I’m misinterpreting you?

So while making it illegal would result in fewer people in our country who have been trafficked in I am left to wonder whether it just means that the problem has been moved to a poorer country? I know I’m over thinking this no doubt.

It’s worth thinking about. I don’t think making it illegal and stopping there is the solution but unfortunately the discussion seems to end there.

 

[starshiptrooper]

In short it is basically an environment that encourages affirmative consent.

 

[Alex337]

Alex337:

So while legalising it can have adverse impact on human trafficking it still helps those who have legally entered the profession.

Yeah but that’s the thing. I would view these victims as more important than the ones who wanted to join the industry themselves? Unless I’m misinterpreting you?

No, but again remember; people are trafficked into slavery in all manner of menial work as well. I wouldn’t want those jobs to be illegal as it would put all the non-trafficked workers in those professions in harms way.

I don’t think one group is more important than the other, but I do think that legalising it affords one group protection while we find a way to put an end to trafficking. I suspect that sex work being illegal means there are fewer sex workers in a country; I do not believe it means there are fewer abused people in the world.

So I believe we should afford sex workers the protection of their work being legal. We should more highly regulate it than we do now. And we should work towards making it safe for those who have been trafficked into a country to go to authorities; whether they were trafficked in for sex work or other forms of slavery.

 

[Benadam]

Pope Francis made a statement about prostitution recently. I paraphrase. " Prostitution damages women and those who pay for it are criminals". I don’t think he would be in favor of making it easier to be a criminal.

 

[Alex337]

In short it is basically an environment that encourages affirmative consent.

Precisely. If the client’s requests are not something the worker feels comfortable with they are able to remove themselves from the situation at any time. Even after they have initially accepted. The brothels my friends have worked at all make this aspect clear on their website and when clients first enter the premises.

I know one person who only works the desk of a brothel, they don’t actually perform sex work, and it’s a fascinating job. It’s a bit similar to a bouncer at times; not allowing in drunk or rowdy clients, ensuring a level of decorum. While also being hospitable and accommodating to help create the right atmosphere of respect.

I also know a couple of people who have partaken in hiring sex workers. Their reasons have been varied. But the most common I have known was that they were fellows who went to a brothel for their first time because they were incredibly shy men, uncomfortable around women and not confident enough to flirt. Now this doesn’t describe every “John”, but it’s important to know that not all of them are leering, sex addicted perverts or cheating husbands.

 

[Lea101]

people are trafficked into slavery in all manner of menial work

I don’t know much about it but people have been exploited even though it is legal (sweatshops for example)?

I do think that legalising it affords one group protection while we find a way to put an end to trafficking. I suspect that sex work being illegal means there are fewer sex workers in a country; I do not believe it means there are fewer abused people in the world.

I don’t think so. You’re not wrong to say that they’ll be shipped off to another place but assuming if all countries followed suit, it can actually reduce things. And if the overall market gets smaller, there would be a lesser demand for these people which would ultimately lead to less victims.

I don’t know how to articulate it better (it’s midnight here, lol) but let’s say if the US has a huge market, more American people would be snatched up. You’re assuming that these people would be definitely sent to other countries with a higher demand, but it could also mean that the traffickers would take lesser people to feed the market in the country/vicinity where they operate.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Absolutely never legalize prostitution.

For one, it objectifies the person by the customer for their own pleasure. It doesn’t matter if the prostitute is doing it willingly, it’s taking advantage of a person in their time of making bad decisions.

Second, as they’re finding out in Amsterdam, the demand exceeds the supply of prostitutes.

As a result, human trafficking has increased, especially girls from Eastern Europe who are trapped into working in brothels.

Lastly, the sexual act outside of marriage is sinful.

Jim

 

[Alex337]

I don’t know how to articulate it better (it’s midnight here, lol) but let’s say if the US has a huge market, more American people would be snatched up. You’re assuming that these people would be definitely sent to other countries with a higher demand, but it could also mean that the traffickers would take lesser people to feed the market in the country/vicinity where they operate.

No worries, it’s super late here too (I’m a bit of an insomniac so I know how it can get). I don’t think that there will ever be no demand for sex workers across the whole world, throughout history there has always been demand. I’ll admit I don’t really understand the desire, I’m rather asexual so I don’t get sexual attraction, but it seems like a facet of humanity.

The reason people from financially struggling countries are often stolen away to other countries, rather than stealing Americans or Australians, is the promise of being taken to a more affluent country. While some people in our country end up trafficked into sex work it’s more often juveniles who have no control over their situation. There aren’t many people in your, or my country that desperately want to flee to, say, a poor country in Eastern Europe. But there are plenty of women in poor countries who want to flee to Australia or the US.

These people will be victimised in some way even if we make one route illegal. Perhaps the traffickers will stop bringing them to Aus or the US for sex, but they’ll still bring them for other menial forms of slavery. Or perhaps they’ll stop bringing them at all and will simply abuse them in their home countries. Or in the nicest possible option perhaps no slave dealer will snap them up and they will simply exist in poverty.

 

[ATraveller]

This understanding also contained in many if not all Protestant catechisms. Different numberings and wording though. The Heidelberg Catechism:

THE SEVENTH COMMANDMENT

“You shall not commit adultery.”

Q. What does the seventh commandment teach us?

A. That God condemns all unchastity, and that therefore we should thoroughly detest it and live decent and chaste lives, within or outside of the holy state of marriage.

Q. Does God, in this commandment, forbid only such scandalous sins as adultery?

A. We are temples of the Holy Spirit, body and soul, and God wants both to be kept clean and holy. That is why God forbids all unchaste actions, looks, talk, thoughts, or desires, and whatever may incite someone to them.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Setting Catholicism totally aside and just looking at practical reality, where prostitution is illegal, it still goes on, and a lot of bad things from a law and order standpoint happen.

If you legalize it, then bad things from a law and order standpoint will happen, magnified by 10.

There is no benefit to legalizing it. It just brings a whole host of crime and exploitation and rot in its wake.

Therefore, it should not be legalized.

 

[BlackFriar]

I would say marriage is not free but more expensive myself .

 

[BlackFriar]

If you legalize it, then bad things from a law and order standpoint will happen, magnified by 10.

There is no benefit to legalizing it.

It amazes me that adults in the 21stC can still come out with these sort of universal, dogmatic sociological assertions simply on the basis of unquestioned childhood catechesis.

Wouldn’t it be significantly more credible to intelligent people you wish to influence here just to say, “in my uninvestigated opinion…”

For myself the benefits from legalising prostitution are well known and proven.
The only prudential issue is whether those benefits outweigh the deficits in any given time/place/country.

Aquinas clearly considered the issue a prudential one on the part of governments and provided arguments why prostitution might be decriminalised even back in C13.

There is no obligation, even for Christian States, to write all significant Church morality into criminal law.