Should the 19 year old Florida school shooter be given the death penalty?

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RichardsPlanet said:
. There are two disorders: the disorder of the person who committed the crime and the disorder brought into the community by the crime. The purpose is to restore the sinner to reconciliation with God and to restore the injury to the community.
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Rehabilitation is a valid objective, but it also is secondary, and the disordered individual is not the disorder 2266 says must be redressed. It is the order of justice that has been violated.

…the act of sin makes man deserving of punishment, in so far as he transgresses the order of Divine justice, to which he cannot return except he pay some sort of penal compensation, which restores him to the equality of justice (Aquinas, ST I-II, 87, 6)
Be careful with your wording, the Church considers that legitimate authority has the right, in safe guarding the community, to impose the death penalty. That is not the same as saying the Church endorsed the death penalty.
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No, the church never (prior to 1995) tied the right to use capital punishment to the need to safeguard the community. It was always approved because it was a just punishment for (some) crimes. And that’s my point: if it was a just punishment then it must be equally just today.
Recall there was a long debate in the early Church whether or not violence of any kind could ever be justified. The outcome was that under certain conditions - namely that of defense - a measured an proportioned violence was tolerable. Nevertheless, the preference has always been for peace.
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I don’t think so . Other than Tertullian and Lantanctius, every Father of the church (who addressed the subject) accepted the legitimacy of capital punishment.

“…death which is inflicted as the penalty of sin is a purification of the sin itself.” (Origen, 185-254)
Jesus spoke quite plainly against retribution (Matthew 5):

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person." (38-39)
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This is the obligation of the individual, but the State has the obligation to punish.

"… when Our Lord says: “You have heard that it hath been said of old, an eye for an eye, etc.,” He does not condemn that law, nor forbid a magistrate to inflict the poena talionis, but He condemns the perverse interpretation of the Pharisees, and forbids in private citizens the desire for and the seeking of vengeance. (St. Bellarmine)
A position that many martyrs held to their death. It was not until Augustine that the notion of justified violence emerged.
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It is much older than that.

“Those, therefore, who do anything beyond that which is agreeable to His will, are punished with death. Ye see, brethren, that the greater the knowledge that has been vouchsafed to us, the greater also is the danger to which we are exposed.” (Pope Clement I 96-98)
 
“Ender said:
“Those, therefore, who do anything beyond that which is agreeable to His will, are punished with death. Ye see, brethren, that the greater the knowledge that has been vouchsafed to us, the greater also is the danger to which we are exposed.” (Pope Clement I 96-98)
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Romans 6
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Can you demonstrate that Clement is talking about execution in this world?
 
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Well the pope did tell Martin Luther that he was wrong to assert that burning heretics at the stake is against God’s will.
 
Ender said:
It was always approved because it was a just punishment for (some) crimes.
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Yes. I don’t see where justice is served by letting a monster killer of children have fun playing basketball with other prisoners and getting three free meals a day, getting free medical care, while the families of the victims suffer terrible trauma every day thinking about how their daughter was taken from them.
 
You are not thinking as God thinks. You are seeking vengeance.

You see him only as a monster. God sees him as a lost son whom He died to save!

If there were no way to safely encarcerate him, then the death penalty is justifiable. And at that, a very sad thing.
 
AlNg said:
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rcwitness:
You are seeking vengeance.
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I thought I was seeking justice and a fair punishment for the heinous crimes committed.
rcwitness said:
You are not thinking as God thinks.
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I thought that God was just and believes that it is right to punish those who afflict you.
2 Thessalonians 1: 6
I go by what Holy Scripture says, and not by what you say.
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2 Thessalonians 1

6 since indeed God deems it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant rest with us to you who are afflicted, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
 
rcwitness said:
2 Thessalonians 1

6 since indeed God deems it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you
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This is what Holy Scripture says. “God deems it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you.”
Do you believe that it is just to repay with affliction those who afflict you? Or is it wrong to do so?
 
AlNg said:
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rcwitness:
2 Thessalonians 1

6 since indeed God deems it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you
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This is what Holy Scripture says. “God deems it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you.”
Do you believe that it is just to repay with affliction those who afflict you? Or is it wrong to do so?
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It is wrong to do so!

Why did you cut out the verse which says it is the Lord and His angels who will do this???
 
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Ender said:
“Those, therefore, who do anything beyond that which is agreeable to His will, are punished with death. Ye see, brethren, that the greater the knowledge that has been vouchsafed to us, the greater also is the danger to which we are exposed.” (Pope Clement I 96-98)
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In US history, the number of mass murders had been very few, until the time (about 1972) when the Supreme court ruled on doing away with capital punishment and it became more and more difficult to impose capital punishment.
 
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It was reinstated 4 yrs later, and 1,264 people have been put to death since then.

The three states with the most murders (Texas, California, Florida) have the death penalty.
 
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rcwitness said:
It was reinstated 4 yrs later, and 1,264 people have been put to death since then.
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Which is about 30 executions per year for the period 1974-2018 . In 1930 to 1944 there were about 160 executions per year. Which period has had the most mass shootings in schools?
 
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Spyridon said:
On a natural, fleshly level I cry out “kill this scumbag.” But that’s my sinful nature speaking, not the Holy Spirit.
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Just for clarity…

When Jesus, at the final judgement, separates the sheep from the goats and relegates the latter to punishment, which of his two natures would be speaking?

To be clear, whether or not Cruz ought to be executed is not the simple matter you make it out to be.

Merely taking the exact opposite position from “Kill this scumbag,” doesn’t assure it is the correct position, and portraying the issue as if it is purely a binary one is somewhat simplistic.
 
We should never give the government the right to kill the governed. It’s a power too far to give up.
 
Russell_SA said:
We should never give the government the right to kill the governed. It’s a power too far to give up.
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Never?

What about to protect some of the governed from the malicious or sadistic intent of others of the governed?

That is the problem with simplistic and absolute statements.
 
Ender said:
“Those, therefore, who do anything beyond that which is agreeable to His will, are punished with death. Ye see, brethren, that the greater the knowledge that has been vouchsafed to us, the greater also is the danger to which we are exposed.” (Pope Clement I 96-98)
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This refers to the “wages of sin”, not to capital punishment.

The Fourth Lateran Council decreed:
No cleric may decree or pronounce a sentence involving the shedding of blood, or carry out a punishment involving the same, or be present when such punishment is carried out. … A cleric may not write or dictate letters which require punishments involving the shedding of blood, in the courts of princes this responsibility should be entrusted to laymen and not to clerics.
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This hardly shows approval for the death penalty - indeed, it is more of a distancing. It does accept that legitimate civil authorities may do so, the Church is to avoid involving itself with a death sentence. Why would the Church remove and distance herself from something which is just and good? Because it is tainted with sin and corruption. One might argue that the Church “closed her eyes and turned away”, but now has decided to speak up in opposition against something that has always been unjust.
  • Yes, there must be punishment.
  • The punishment may not exceed the disorder (following lex talionis - which Augustine called the imperfect law of the Pharisees), but it does not have to equal it.
  • The Church has always advocated for civil obedience to legitimate authority
  • The Church has always accepted the right of legitimate authority to protect and defend itself
  • The Church has never said the death penalty must be applied
  • The Church herself, will never pronounce a death sentence.
 
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