Should the Bible be.....placed aside?

[Truth_Seeker123]

If you’re going to make such bold statements about the Catholic Church, it’s up to you to back them up with evidence. If I wanted to accuse you of a crime, I wouldn’t call a policeman and say, “Truth did something bad! It’s up to you to figure it out and prove what it was!” Makes no sense.

We have used Scripture. You have failed to directly respond to it, except by quoting more verses and saying we’re wrong.

Okay, I’ve read the verses. What’s your point? Could you actually give a response to the verses I posted, with commentary?

On Matthew it is saying the disciples were being accused of transgressing against the traditions of the elders by the scribes and pharisees. But the accusers didn’t even realize their traditions were transgressing against the law the God

Their traditions were unbiblical, yet they held on to them. No scriptural support. They had no problem killing people, stoning, and so on. Sound familiar?

 

[CaptainPicard]

Wait, back up…What does the rest of the books in the Bible say? Lets discuss

Jesus is the Rock.
Death means sleep.
No immediate Heaven.
No purgatory.
His name title equals 666.
Jesus is the way and no one else.
No biblical evidence for the Eucharist.
Infant baptism.
Praying to dead people.
Putting merit in relics.

Since you know what these books say, provide evidence for what you believe and do.

If you want to discuss any of these things, you should start a separate thread.

There are two things on your list that are somewhat related to this thread.
First, Jesus is the rock. God is the rock. Catholics would agree with you. It’s a title given to God and Jesus specifically many times.

It also happens to be the name given to Simon in John 1:42. If Jesus wanted that title for Himself alone, he wouldn’t have given somebody else that name.

The second point you make regarding the Pope is that his title equals 666.
What you are referring to is the following title:
Vicar of the Son of God, which in Latin is VICARIVS FILII DEI

The way that is used to add up the the total value is by taking all the letters which are roman numerals out and adding them together. The other letters are discarded. U’s are V’s and W’s count as two V’s

D = 500
C = 100
L = 50
X = 10
V = 5
I = 1

In the case of the above title, it does indeed add up to 666 (with a minor quibble, the IV in VICARIVS could me counted as four and not six and thus make the title add up to 664 instead of 666).
1 D = 500, 1 C = 100, 1 L = 50, 2 V’s = 10 and six I’s = 6 . 500 + 100 + 50 + 10 + 6 = 666

The only problem is that the title “Vicar of the Son of God” is not actually a title for the Pope. The Pope has many titles, but not one of them is “Vicar of the Son of God”, nor do any of his titles add up to 666. So where did the title “Vicar of the Son of God” come from? It comes from the Donation of Constantine, a forged document from the eight century.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donation_of_Constantine

However, no official church document in history gives “Vicar of the Son of God” as one of the Pope’s titles.

I’m guessing that you are a Seventh Day Adventist, since they are usually the ones to advocate that the Pope is the Antichrist and you argued that death equals sleep. This is something that you might be interested in knowing
If you take the name ELLEN GOVLD VVHITE, a woman considered a sort of modern day prophet by the SDA movement, you also get an interesting result:
1 D = 500, 3 l’s = 150, 3 V’s = 15, 1 I = 1. Add it all up and what’s the result? 666!

 

[Bbigam]

Why would you not put the Bible first when the Bible clearly says the Christ IS the WORD. The WORD was made FLESH. Christ= the Word, Bible, and so on. He is above any catholic book.

Are you really saying that the Bible is Jesus? You worship a book? I hope I’ve misunderstood you here. As I already said:

Of course the Word of God is enough - He’s Jesus Christ. The Bible’s just one of the ways that he has revealed Himself to us.

Where in the Bible does it say that the Bible is Jesus?

On Matthew it is saying the disciples were being accused of transgressing against the traditions of the elders by the scribes and pharisees. But the accusers didn’t even realize their traditions were transgressing against the law the God

Their traditions were unbiblical, yet they held on to them. No scriptural support. They had no problem killing people, stoning, and so on. Sound familiar?

Ok, I see your point - of course we shouldn’t follow unbiblical traditions, if by unbiblical you mean anti-biblical. But if you looked at my Biblical quotes, you’d see that clearly not all traditions are “unbiblical.”

For convenience, here’s what I posted not long ago:

I Timothy 3:15: But if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
(the Church is the pillar of the truth. Not the Bible, although the Bible is true.)

II Thessalonians 2:15: Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
(Note the importance of traditions passed on by word of mouth, in addition to writings.)

II Peter 1:20: …that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation…"

I’d appreciate it if you would respond specifically to these Scripture passages if you really want the conversation to go anywhere. Thanks!

 

[Truth_Seeker123]

If you want to discuss any of these things, you should start a separate thread.

There are two things on your list that are somewhat related to this thread.
First, Jesus is the rock. God is the rock. Catholics would agree with you. It’s a title given to God and Jesus specifically many times.

It also happens to be the name given to Simon in John 1:42. If Jesus wanted that title for Himself alone, he wouldn’t have given somebody else that name.

The second point you make regarding the Pope is that his title equals 666.
What you are referring to is the following title:
Vicar of the Son of God, which in Latin is VICARIVS FILII DEI

The way that is used to add up the the total value is by taking all the letters which are roman numerals out and adding them together. The other letters are discarded. U’s are V’s and W’s count as two V’s

D = 500
C = 100
L = 50
X = 10
V = 5
I = 1

In the case of the above title, it does indeed add up to 666 (with a minor quibble, the IV in VICARIVS could me counted as four and not six and thus make the title add up to 664 instead of 666).
1 D = 500, 1 C = 100, 1 L = 50, 2 V’s = 10 and six I’s = 6 . 500 + 100 + 50 + 10 + 6 = 666

The only problem is that the title “Vicar of the Son of God” is not actually a title for the Pope. The Pope has many titles, but not one of them is “Vicar of the Son of God”, nor do any of his titles add up to 666. So where did the title “Vicar of the Son of God” come from? It comes from the Donation of Constantine, a forged document from the eight century.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donation_of_Constantine

However, no official church document in history gives “Vicar of the Son of God” as one of the Pope’s titles.

I’m guessing that you are a Seventh Day Adventist, since they are usually the ones to advocate that the Pope is the Antichrist and you argued that death equals sleep. This is something that you might be interested in knowing
If you take the name ELLEN GOVLD VVHITE, a woman considered a sort of modern day prophet by the SDA movement, you also get an interesting result:
1 D = 500, 3 l’s = 150, 3 V’s = 15, 1 I = 1. Add it all up and what’s the result? 666!

Started threads, they were all bashed. No one likes to have biblical conversations or atleast thats how it seems. No Im not a SDA.

You don’t have to be an SDA to study the Bible.

 

[Truth_Seeker123]

Are you really saying that the Bible is Jesus? You worship a book? I hope I’ve misunderstood you here. As I already said:

Where in the Bible does it say that the Bible is Jesus?

Ok, I see your point - of course we shouldn’t follow unbiblical traditions, if by unbiblical you mean anti-biblical. But if you looked at my Biblical quotes, you’d see that clearly not all traditions are “unbiblical.”

For convenience, here’s what I posted not long ago:

I’d appreciate it if you would respond specifically to these Scripture passages if you really want the conversation to go anywhere. Thanks!

And I would like for you to respond to mine. How about that?

 

[CaptainPicard]

On Matthew it is saying the disciples were being accused of transgressing against the traditions of the elders by the scribes and pharisees. But the accusers didn’t even realize their traditions were transgressing against the law the God

Their traditions were unbiblical, yet they held on to them. No scriptural support. They had no problem killing people, stoning, and so on. Sound familiar?

The passage you’re referring to says that their traditions nullified the word of God. Catholics agree with this passage. No Church teaching should go against the word of God, nor claim to be from God but actually be man-made. You obviously believe that many Catholic teachings do just this, but that would have to be discussed on a teaching by teaching basis in a different thread.

Also, stoning people was very scriptural. The following are passages from the old testament regarding stoning.

* Touching Mount Sinai while God was giving Moses the Ten Commandments (Exodus 19:13)

He shall surely be stoned or shot with arrows; not a hand is to be laid on him. Whether man or animal, he shall not be permitted to live.’ Only when the ram’s horn sounds a long blast may they go up to the mountain.

* Breaking the Shabbat (Numbers 15:32-36)

32And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

* Giving one's "seed" (presumably one's offspring) "to Moloch a form of human sacrifice" (Leviticus 20:2-5)

"Say to the Israelites: 'Any Israelite or any alien living in Israel who gives [a] any of his children to Molech must be put to death. The people of the community are to stone him.

* Having a "familiar spirit" (or being a necromancer) or being a "wizard" (Lev. 20:27)

A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

* Cursing God (Lev. 24:10-16)

And the son of an Israelitish woman, whose father was an Egyptian, went out among the children of Israel: and this son of the Israelitish woman and a man of Israel strove together in the camp;
And the Israelitish woman’s son blasphemed the name of the Lord, and cursed. And they brought him unto Moses: (and his mother’s name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan)
And they put him in ward, that the mind of the LORD might be shewed them.
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him.

* Engaging in idolatry (Deuteronomy 17:2-7) or seducing others to do so (Deut. 13:7-12)

* "Rebellion" against parents in a disgusting way (Deut. 21,21)
* Sexual intercourse between a man and a woman engaged to another man (both should be stoned, Deut. 22:23-24), unless in case of rape.

 

[CB_Catholic]

So am I better off sticking to the Bible? What if I choose to only live by the Bible, what will happen?

If you choose to live only by the Bible, that is fine. I suggest you start with the Ninth Commandment (Protestant numbering). It is not a suggestion, it is a Commandment, the breaking of which is seriously sinful. Think hard about that before you post false accusations against your Catholic brethern, or anyone else. And remember that God knows every single thought, attitude, action, and motive you have. Nothing can be hidden from Him, and He is the one you will have to give an account to, not anyone else.

 

[Truth_Seeker123]

Are you really saying that the Bible is Jesus? You worship a book? I hope I’ve misunderstood you here. As I already said:

Where in the Bible does it say that the Bible is Jesus?

Ok, I see your point - of course we shouldn’t follow unbiblical traditions, if by unbiblical you mean anti-biblical. But if you looked at my Biblical quotes, you’d see that clearly not all traditions are “unbiblical.”

For convenience, here’s what I posted not long ago:

I’d appreciate it if you would respond specifically to these Scripture passages if you really want the conversation to go anywhere. Thanks!

I feel like I am wasting my energy now. Read John chapter one. All of it. You will see it. The Bible is the Word of God. Jesus is the Word. The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus was made flesh and dwelt among us.

I don’t worship a book. It’s clear in the scriptures that Jesus is the Word. The Word is made up of the Bible…

So do you want to be the first to have that one on one conversation or not, because this is tiresome.

 

[Bbigam]

And I would like for you to respond to mine. How about that?

Sure thing. That’s what I did when I said:

Are you really saying that the Bible is Jesus? You worship a book? I hope I’ve misunderstood you here. As I already said:

Of course the Word of God is enough - He’s Jesus Christ. The Bible’s just one of the ways that he has revealed Himself to us.

I was responding to your posts:

Christ is the Word. Here’s some scripture for you.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth

If you want to know about you “traditions” read Matthew 15:2,3

I also posted it previously

and:

On Matthew it is saying the disciples were being accused of transgressing against the traditions of the elders by the scribes and pharisees. But the accusers didn’t even realize their traditions were transgressing against the law the God

Their traditions were unbiblical, yet they held on to them. No scriptural support. They had no problem killing people, stoning, and so on. Sound familiar?

Did you not like my responses?

 

[Truth_Seeker123]

Send me a pm. we can talk privately. or email me. that way something can get accomplished. Anyone is welcome to do so.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Perhaps this will clarify things, TS.

Is Jesus Christ ‘equal to’ the Bible? Is Christ in any way “more” than the Bible?

I think that I (and probably others) totally believe in the Bible as the Written Word of Christ. . .but we also believe that Christ is ‘more’ than simply His Written Word. Therefore while we revere, honor, and venerate the Word of God (Bible) we do not ‘adore’ it, but we do adore Jesus.

Because we can’t truly have a relationship with a book. . .but we can with a Person. And a person’s word is important, but it isn’t the ‘entirety’ of the person.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

And while we’re at it, if you’re busy PM’ing people anyway, how about asking the mods to lock this thread because your original premise was based on falsehoods that you had inadvertently put both, not knowing them to be false?

 

[Bbigam]

I feel like I am wasting my energy now. Read John chapter one. All of it. You will see it. The Bible is the Word of God. Jesus is the Word. The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus was made flesh and dwelt among us.

I don’t worship a book. It’s clear in the scriptures that Jesus is the Word. The Word is made up of the Bible…

So do you want to be the first to have that one on one conversation or not, because this is tiresome.

I have read John 1. Of course, Jesus is the Word, and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. It’s the Incarnation, and it’s beautiful. But nowhere does it say the the Word of God equals the Bible’s 66 or 73 books. I’m saying that the Word of God is much more than a book or a set of books, however inspired they may be (and they are!).

Sorry, not really interested in PMing. I’d rather keep it all out in the forum.

 

[Truth_Seeker123]

Sure thing. That’s what I did when I said:

I was responding to your posts:

and:

Did you not like my responses?

When you can get past the fact that Jesus is the Word and the Word is made up of something called the Bible and that you should put it first. Then we can move on. But as long as you ignore it, then what’s the point.

When you see that point being made in the Bible, you will then be able to see catholicism for what it really is. You are in a faith that is telling you to put God first but not his Word when Jesus is the Word in the flesh which is the Bible in the flesh.

Catholicism tells you that the Bible isn’t enough for you to live by when Jesus is the Bible made in flesh. The scriptures are of Jesus, they testify of him. He is the Word. That’s why we only need the Bible and no other book.

 

[Bbigam]

When you can get past the fact that Jesus is the Word and the Word is made up of something called the Bible and that you should put it first. Then we can move on. But as long as you ignore it, then what’s the point.

When you see that point being made in the Bible, you will then be able to see catholicism for what it really is. You are in a faith that is telling you to put God first but not his Word when Jesus is the Word in the flesh which is the Bible in the flesh.

Catholicism tells you that the Bible isn’t enough for you to live by when Jesus is the Bible made in flesh. The scriptures are of Jesus, they testify of him. He is the Word. That’s why we only need the Bible and no other book.

I’ve given you verses and arguments that the Word is more than the Bible, but you haven’t responded to them. I wish you well on your journey and hope you find the truth your name says you seek.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

When you can get past the fact that Jesus is the Word and the Word is made up of something called the Bible and that you should put it first. Then we can move on. But as long as you ignore it, then what’s the point.

When you see that point being made in the Bible, you will then be able to see catholicism for what it really is. You are in a faith that is telling you to put God first but not his Word when Jesus is the Word in the flesh which is the Bible in the flesh.

Catholicism tells you that the Bible isn’t enough for you to live by when Jesus is the Bible made in flesh. The scriptures are of Jesus, they testify of him. He is the Word. That’s why we only need the Bible and no other book.

You seem to mistake a book for a Person. Jesus is ‘more’ than His Written Word. I live by Jesus, and you seem to not even be aware that Jesus’s own written word neither contains everything Jesus said and did, nor does it claim to be an authority–in fact, His Written Word specifically tells us that the authority is His Church.

Our faith does not pit us against Jesus, and it does not insist on turning Jesus into ONLY His Written Word as if Jesus had told us to 'make a Bible" and had never established a Church as His authority instead. . .

 

[jmcrae]

Can you explain the context?

Also Matthew 15:2,3 says Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

He did not mean by this that all tradition, including His own, was bad.

One more question, do you think that the Bible has everything in it that you need to live by?

No, it doesn’t. For example, it doesn’t provide job training, or cooking lessons.

Mat. 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

The Bible isn’t God. “Every word that proceeds from the mouth of God” also includes those words of His that we recall by means of the Holy Tradition - not just those that happened to be recorded in Scripture.

 

[Truth_Seeker123]

I’ve given you verses and arguments that the Word is more than the Bible, but you haven’t responded to them. I wish you well on your journey and hope you find the truth your name says you seek.

lol I find truth in the Word of God.

My friend, if you only knew the dangers of catholicism…

I have stepped out of the box and compared many religions to what the Bible says and they are all unbiblical. Catholicism is not the True church of God. Books have been written to support their beliefs. They are in complete opposition to the Bible. You are even defending the belief of not putting the Bible first over any book.

Do you not see anything wrong with this situation. The catholic church encourages you to prove that the church is the true church with a scripture, and then turn around and say the Bible is not all you need. If it is good enough to show that you are the true church, shouldn’t it be good enough to live by alone.

If you do nothing else, please research what you are apart of. Satan is in control of that organization. You can tell by it’s fruits. Babylon means confusion.

Satan wants to exalt himself, and be like the most high. Sound familiar?

Please refer to post 31. You can’t be the True church and not follow the same book that you say claims you are the true church.

 

[Nine_Two]

lol I find truth in the Word of God.

Then answer that question I asked you so long ago. How many angels were at the tomb?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You know, you still haven’t acknowledged:

1. That your original post contained quotes which have been shown to be false. . .you started your whole diatribe against the Church by claiming those ‘quotes’ were true, and you still haven’t acknowledged your error.
2. Which ‘site’ obligingly furnished you those erroneous quotes.

It’s kind of hard to have a dialogue with somebody who starts out accusing Catholics of something and uses false information to do so, and who never even acknowledges his error.

If you’re seeking Truth, shouldn’t you of all people acknowledge when you have --inadvertently I’m sure–been wrong?