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yqbd
Guest
more like what happens in hell/when hell is/where/who/what/why/how than dispensing hell itself.
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Cubsfan
Guest
Of all aspects of the modern age that perplexes me most is the idea that since we use democratic republics as our form of government that it should apply to all the other institutions that we as humans are part of. The idea that the Pope or a conclave of Cardinals should vote to repeal those parts of the faith that make people squemish is utterly ridiculous.
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De_Maria
Guest
1 Cor 310By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
Most references which Jesus makes to gnashing of teeth and fire can be applied to hell as well as purgatory. Only the ones that reference eternal fire must be applied to hell exclusively.
Matthew 8:12
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matthew 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
No.
Jesus. Do you mean who coined the word “purgatory”? That would be:
History of the belief in Purgatory:
Some of the early Church Fathers wrote about an intermediate state after death; a way station on the path to Heaven. Many wrote about the importance of issuing prayers for the dead. Such prayers only make sense if a third state - one other than Heaven or Hell - exists. After all, if the person who died is in Heaven, prayers would be meaningless; if the person was in Hell, then they are already lost and prayers would not help them.
Early Christian writers included "Fathers Tertullian, Origen, Cyprian, Lactantius, Eusebius, Cyril, Gregory of Nyssa, Epiphanius, Jerome, Ambrose, John Chrysostom, Augustine, Gregory the Great, Venerable Bede and second-millennium theologians such as Anselm, Bernard, Aquinas and Bonaventure…" 1,2 Prayers for the dead are also found in early Christian catacombs and in early church liturgies.
Code:
*"Both purgatory and prayers for the dead were upheld by the major councils, beginning with the Council of Carthage in 394 A.D."**
religioustolerance.org/purgatory1.htm
I don’t know anything about that website but the information seems accurate.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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buffalo
Guest
** III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY **
1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
[1031](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/1031.htm’)
The Church gives the name *Purgatory *to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
[1032](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1032.htm’) This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611
The punishments of sin
[1472](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1472.htm’) To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84
1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
[1031](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/1031.htm’) The Church gives the name *Purgatory *to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
[1032](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/1032.htm’) This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611
The punishments of sin
[1472](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/1472.htm’) To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84
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yqbd
Guest
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God said, “thou shalt surely die.”
the serpent said, “Ye shall not surely die:”
John 3:16, “perish” or “have everlasting life.”
who will you believe?
do you notice how other religion and beliefs have this theme of the immortal soul? like reincarnation, where the immortal soul keeps coming back in a new body.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God said, “thou shalt surely die.”
the serpent said, “Ye shall not surely die:”
John 3:16, “perish” or “have everlasting life.”
who will you believe?
do you notice how other religion and beliefs have this theme of the immortal soul? like reincarnation, where the immortal soul keeps coming back in a new body.
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Ahimsa
Guest
True, but in Hinduism, for instance, reincarnation is not the goal. The goal is communion with God, which stops the reincarnation process entirely. In addition, Hindus believe both in (1) heaven and hell; and (2) reincarnation in a physical body; the two notions are synthesized in the Hindu system.
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yqbd
Guest
no more death.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
second death, not second life burning infinity.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
second death, not second life burning infinity.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
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Roman_Army
Guest
The Church has no authority to change the teaching of Hell. Hell is very real. God is Love, but God is also Just. Do you want murderers, rapists, demons, and etc to be with you in Heaven? I wouldn’t, especially since I might be there for eternity.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
It is perfectly true that we do not know other people’s hearts. It is true that God knows. We know what we see, however.Example: I watched the **fruits **of Mother Teresa’s life. She poured out love to everyone for decades. I do not claim to know her heart, but it is reasonable to assume that these actions flowed from her oft expressed love for our Lord. If I accept that, (and I do!), I can reasonably presume to know that she is in Heaven with Him.
I saw the fruits of a group of fanatics on 9/11/2001. Again, I do not know their hearts. I do know that if they did not repent, they died with murder on their souls. I believe that it is reasonable to at least doubt that they are in Heaven now, because their deeds showed their hearts.
Can I be totally wrong about this? Gosh, yes. I am onlyhuman. I make mistakes all the time. However, to use Catholic terminolgy on this point, if one person dies in a state of mortal sin, while the second has not even any venial sin in her heart, it is not unreasonable to presume that the former’s present state is less happy than the latter’s.
Therefore, until, as another post has all ready suggested, until Jesus comes back & retracts His previous statements on [hell], I must believe in it.
It is absolutely true that God **is **a God of grace. That is why Jesus went to the cross. But you see, unless God is not also a God of justice, that sacrifice would not have been necessary . If God,( being in charge of all things, )could have somehow forgiven sins in another way-- without the brutal torture & death of our Lord-- then He would have.Since He did not do so, & since Jesus did teach of a real hell, I am forced to believe in it also.
Anything else would make mortal sins a joke, & the Lord Jesus a liar or deluded…neither of which I can believe.
God bless.
If God were just - there would be no grace 
AFAICS, nothing so fully shows the Love of Christ as the Crucifixion - so I (at least) don’t see how anything but the Cross could have possible (I know this has been much debated down the centuries) ##
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stanley123
Guest
But it can expand on past teachings? without changing them?
For example, the doctrine of no salvation outside the Church?
Pope St. Gregory the Great, quoted in *Summo Iugiter Studio, *590-604:
“The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved.”**
*Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208:
“By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, notof heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”
Pope Clement VI, Super quibusdam, Sept. 20, 1351:
“In the second place, we ask whether you and the Armenians obedient to you believe that no man of the wayfarers outside the faith of this Church, and outside the obedience to the Pope of Rome, can finally be saved.”
Pope Leo XII, Ubi Primum (# 14), May 5, 1824:
“It is impossible for the most true God, who is Truth itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and the Rewarder of good men, to approve all sects who profess false teachings which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members… by divine faith we hold one Lord, one faith, one baptism… This is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church.”
Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (# 13), Aug. 15, 1832: “With the admonition of the apostle, that ‘there is one God, one faith, one baptism’ (Eph. 4:5), may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever. They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that ‘those who are not with Christ are against Him,’ (Lk. 11:23)and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore, ‘without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate (Athanasian Creed).”
Pope Pius IX, *Ubi primum *(# 10), June 17, 1847: “For ‘there is one universal Church outside of which no one at all is saved; it contains regular and secular prelates along with those under their jurisdiction, who all profess one Lord, one faith and one baptism.”
Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 121a: “THERE IS INDEED ONE UNIVERSAL CHURCH OF THE FAITHFUL, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.”
**However, according to the **“Reflections on Covenant and Mission,” a joint Catholic-Jewish document, “A deepening appreciation of the eternal covenant between God and the Jewish people . . . lead
And, according to Walter Cardinal Kasper, president of the Pontifical Commission for the Religious Relations with the Jews, "the Church believes that Judaism . . . is salvific for [the Jews] because God is faithful to his promises.”
So it looks like the Church has expanded on its previous teaching on this???*
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Could that not be the foreshadowing of the Lion and the Lamb?
Alan
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Exporter
Guest
Ladies and Gentlemen, Jesus Himself spoke of Gehenna (the Jewish hell) 7 or 8 times. You don’t doubt Jesus do you?
If God is just, then there has to be a hell IF there is a heaven. Does heaven exist? Read Johm 14 :1 - 3. Jesus says He will prepare a place in His Fathers house. His Father is a Spirit - God.
If God is just, then there has to be a hell IF there is a heaven. Does heaven exist? Read Johm 14 :1 - 3. Jesus says He will prepare a place in His Fathers house. His Father is a Spirit - God.
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justcatholic
Guest
Anyone who is a member of the Roman Catholic Church and denies the reality of an eternal hell of fire and torment, should be excommunicated for denying the faith. Christ, the apostles, the church fathers and the Catholic Catechism all are in agreement of it’s terrible reality. Enough of this non sense.
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Ahimsa
Guest
If Jesus taught a Jewish conception of hell, then that leads to the question: is Christian ideas of hell simply affirmations of Jewish conceptions of hell? And which Jewish tradition are we talking about?
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trailblazer
Guest
Best solution – trust the Church!
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EquusNomVeritas
Guest
2 Maccabees 12:42-46 states that it is just to pray and offer sacrifices for the sake of the dead. Considering the parable of Lazarus and the rich man (namely, that it is impossible to cross from heaven to hell, and vice versa), I would have to say that this notion is completely pointless unless purgatory exists. Your only recourse would be to say that after death, we are sent to some kind of “wainting room,” but how would this “waiting room” NOT be purgatory?
Or is the entire point of your post merely to fling mud in our collective eyes? The anti-catholic nature becomes apparent here.
The two don’t contradict each other. If your priest actually said this, then he was in error. But you’re not really a catholic, are you?
Again, the two aren’t in contradiction. You’re really stretching here.
This is a very un-Christian attitude. Look, He died to save all people. If some reject this salvation, that is tragic, but it does not make His sacrifice in vain, especially for the sake of those whom He does save.
Um, trusting Mary seems pretty safe, considering that if nothing else, she will point you to her Son. When looked at in the proper context, Mary is dignified because of her relationship with Christ, not in place of Christ. Where did Mary enter into this conversation, again?
I see that we can agree on at least one thing.
No, see the post about Luke 1:28-30 (thanks slinky1882)
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EquusNomVeritas
Guest
Most evidence would point contrary to that. Look, Elijah and Enoch were both assumed into heaven without dying. Why is it so hard to believe that Mary was too? Furthermore, there are no ancient accounts of her dying. No tomb. And perhaps most compelling, NO REMAINS. COnsidering the pains that early Christians went through to retrieve the reamains of their dead brethren, this seems incredible. Also, no one ever seriously claimed to have her remains later, which is BIG because of the value associated with relics.
That tends to happen when one is assumed.
See above.
Wrong, we don’t worship Mary, we venerate her. That is, we respect her. That is altogether different than worshipping her.
Again, see above.
Preferrably yes, but, well, haven’t you ever asked someone else to pray for you? Or been asked to pray for someone else?
See above. Also, refer to the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man asks Lazarus to go to his brothers to warn them. Seems pretty reasonable that they can hear us, and they certainly have God’s favor already. Sort of like asking another sibling to help with parents when you’re in trouble.
The Bible doesn’t say she wasn’t assumed, and most evidence supports that she was. Beyond that, you’re babbling, rambling, and repeating yourself here.
Again, why all of the hostility?
Unlikely. Nobody is worthy, salvation is a gift of God. By the way, if you’re a Christian, I take it that you believe in salvation through faith alone? Catholics have faith too, so why attack us on this point?
Your post, though largely incoherrent, demonstrates that you obviously hold some grudge or general agnst against Catholics and catholocism. Why? Is it not better to forgive? Isn’t that what Christ taught? This general attack on us isn’t going to help anyone, and it isn’t going to win you any friends or converts in the process. So I conclude by saying simply, “Peace be with you.”
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Summer_Girl
Guest
I recall that when I was taking a philosophy of religion class in college about 8 years ago that we discussed this topic. There was theory being floated around the early church that since God was infinitely good that eventully every soul would make it to heaven-some would just have a really, really, really, long time in purgatory. The church declared it a heresy. I can not for the life of me remember the man who was teaching this doctrines name. Like I said it was about 8 years ago. Does anyone else know who I’m talking about or remember any of the details?(Mine might be a little fuzzy)
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Promotor_Fidei
Guest
Summer Girl:
carm.org/heresy/pelagianism.htm
newadvent.org/cathen/11604a.htm
Pelagianism. Pelagius.Does anyone else know who I’m talking about or remember any of the details?(Mine might be a little fuzzy)
carm.org/heresy/pelagianism.htm
newadvent.org/cathen/11604a.htm
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Edwin1961
Guest
I always thought this topic was already decided when Jesus HIMSELF said there IS a Hell. (He used words that would describe such a place).
So if Christ said there is a Hell. There IS a Hell.
No debate needed!
So if Christ said there is a Hell. There IS a Hell.
No debate needed!
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