Should the Church reconsider its position on hell?

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romano:
Apparently certain important Early Church Fathers such as St. Gregory of Nyssa felt that the notion of hell as eternal damnation was incompatible with the infinite love and mercy of God.

Should a new Council be called to re-examine the Church’s official position on hell with a view to its possible revision?
Universal restoration (Apokatastasis) was condemned in a synod of Alexandria in AD 400 and again in a provisional council of Constantinople in AD 553. I think such condemnations have been affirmed for quite some time, so I don’t believe any serious Catholic dogmatic theologian has room for doubt on the doctrines pertaining to everlasting character of hell and the never-ending punishment for those cast into hell.

When Origen spoke of universal restoration, he prefaced this teaching as speculative, not dogmatic. St. Gregory was influenced by Origen’s teaching. Yet, the opinions of Catholics, even saintly ones, are less authoritative than synodal and councilar decisions of the magisterium.
 
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EquusNomVeritas:
Most evidence would point contrary to that. Look, Elijah and Enoch were both assumed into heaven without dying. Why is it so hard to believe that Mary was too? Furthermore, there are no ancient accounts of her dying. No tomb. And perhaps most compelling, NO REMAINS. COnsidering the pains that early Christians went through to retrieve the reamains of their dead brethren, this seems incredible. Also, no one ever seriously claimed to have her remains later, which is BIG because of the value associated with relics.

That tends to happen when one is assumed.

See above.

Wrong, we don’t worship Mary, we venerate her. That is, we respect her. That is altogether different than worshipping her.

Again, see above.

Preferrably yes, but, well, haven’t you ever asked someone else to pray for you? Or been asked to pray for someone else?

See above. Also, refer to the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man asks Lazarus to go to his brothers to warn them. Seems pretty reasonable that they can hear us, and they certainly have God’s favor already. Sort of like asking another sibling to help with parents when you’re in trouble.

The Bible doesn’t say she wasn’t assumed, and most evidence supports that she was. Beyond that, you’re babbling, rambling, and repeating yourself here.

Again, why all of the hostility?

Unlikely. Nobody is worthy, salvation is a gift of God. By the way, if you’re a Christian, I take it that you believe in salvation through faith alone? Catholics have faith too, so why attack us on this point?

Your post, though largely incoherrent, demonstrates that you obviously hold some grudge or general agnst against Catholics and catholocism. Why? Is it not better to forgive? Isn’t that what Christ taught? This general attack on us isn’t going to help anyone, and it isn’t going to win you any friends or converts in the process. So I conclude by saying simply, “Peace be with you.”
Amen to you for rebutting what he said, i thought about it, but couldnt be bothered. 😛
 
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stanley123:
But it can expand on past teachings? without changing them?
For example, the doctrine of no salvation outside the Church?
Pope St. Gregory the Great, quoted in *Summo Iugiter Studio, *590-604:

“The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved.”**

Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208:

“By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, notof heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”

Pope Clement VI, Super quibusdam, Sept. 20, 1351:

“In the second place, we ask whether you and the Armenians obedient to you believe that no man of the wayfarers outside the faith of this Church, and outside the obedience to the Pope of Rome, can finally be saved.”

Pope Leo XII, Ubi Primum (# 14), May 5, 1824:

“It is impossible for the most true God, who is Truth itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and the Rewarder of good men, to approve all sects who profess false teachings which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members… by divine faith we hold one Lord, one faith, one baptism… This is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church.”

Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (# 13), Aug. 15, 1832: “With the admonition of the apostle, that ‘there is one God, one faith, one baptism’ (Eph. 4:5), may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever. They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that ‘those who are not with Christ are against Him,’ (Lk. 11:23)and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore, ‘without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate (Athanasian Creed).”

Pope Pius IX, *Ubi primum *(# 10), June 17, 1847: “For ‘there is one universal Church outside of which no one at all is saved; it contains regular and secular prelates along with those under their jurisdiction, who all profess one Lord, one faith and one baptism.”

Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 121a: “THERE IS INDEED ONE UNIVERSAL CHURCH OF THE FAITHFUL, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.”

**However, according to the **“Reflections on Covenant and Mission,” a joint Catholic-Jewish document, “A deepening appreciation of the eternal covenant between God and the Jewish people . . . lead to the conclusion that campaigns that target Jews for conversion to Christianity are no longer theologically acceptable in the Catholic Church.”

And, according to Walter Cardinal Kasper, president of the Pontifical Commission for the Religious Relations with the Jews, "the Church believes that Judaism . . . is salvific for [the Jews] because God is faithful to his promises.”

So it looks like the Church has expanded on its previous teaching on this???

It was expanded, but not changed. There still is no salvation outside the Church.
Lumen gentium:… “For such people [those who do not formally enter the Church, as in LG 16] salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church.”
We underline the word “formally” to indicated that there may be something less than formal membership, which yet suffices for salvation. A similar thought is found in LG #14 which says “they are fully incorporated” who accept all its organization. . . . ." We will show presently that there can be a lesser, or substantial membership, which suffices for salvation.<

ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT
 
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Hildebrand:
It was expanded, but not changed. There still is no salvation outside the Church.
Lumen gentium:… “For such people [those who do not formally enter the Church, as in LG 16] salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church.”
We underline the word “formally” to indicated that there may be something less than formal membership, which yet suffices for salvation. A similar thought is found in LG #14 which says “they are fully incorporated” who accept all its organization. . . . ." We will show presently that there can be a lesser, or substantial membership, which suffices for salvation.<

ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT
Correct. The Church grows organically.

Anyone who makes it to heaven will be Catholic upon arrival.
 
First of all, it’s not the Church’s position. It’s God position. And what position should it be that God would change? Hell is the ultimate free will choice, and God always allows us to exercise our free will. Where can the unrepentant soul go? Not Heaven. Nothing unclean can enter. Not Purgatory because mortal sin can gain no entry there. Souls do not die, so where would the unrepentant soul go? Hell is the just place for those who sinned against the Almighty. It really points to the majesty, omnipotence, omnicience, and omnipresence of God. If we could do what we wanted and get to Heaven, that speaks badly of Heaven. But if the opposite of Heaven is hopelessness and despair, the complete absence of God, who is all good, then we obtain a healthy enough fear of it as a place that we truly do not want to end up in for all eternity. It’s insulting to God really, and foolhardy on our part, to think that Hell anthing other than Hellish, or to think that God could mitigate it somewhat for us.No Hell is not mutable. Hell is. But…God is – and we’re free to choose where we want to spend eternity…As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord…better to serve in Heaven than to reign in Hell.
 
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cecelia:
First of all, it’s not the Church’s position. It’s God position.
Excellent.

The teaching on hell is divine revelation, comes from God, in other words. God cannot change, thus His teachings cannot change. If any of His teachings had ever changed, then God would have been wrong on one of them. Since God is perfect and can never be wrong, His teaching on hell cannot change. Since God prevents His Church from teaching error, the teaching on hell comes from God and thus can’t change.
 
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dcdurel:
Excellent.

The teaching on hell is divine revelation, comes from God, in other words. God cannot change, thus His teachings cannot change. If any of His teachings had ever changed, then God would have been wrong on one of them. Since God is perfect and can never be wrong, His teaching on hell cannot change. Since God prevents His Church from teaching error, the teaching on hell comes from God and thus can’t change.
'Nuff said :bowdown: Case closed…Next?!!
 
The Bible has been decreed by the Church to be the infallible Word of God. The Bible mentions hell- very clearly- on numerous occasions. Hell is a doctrine of the Church, and cannot ever change. If everything we believe has to be decreed by a council- not just in the bible, then why did they bother putting the bible together in the first place?! Scripture AND Tradition- not Tradition only. That is just as wrong as the protestant view of Sola Scriptura.

I don’t know what St. Gregory of Nyssa said on the matter- it doesn’t really matter- if he said that the notion of hell is incompatible with God’s love, he’s wrong- God is all loving, all merciful, yet all just- if a person rejects God, how can that person be in heaven with him? St. Gregory of Nyssa is a saint, so I trust he died in good standing with the Church, but that doesn’t mean he was always in good standing with the Church. Also, if what he said was true, it was probably before the bible was even put together, and he may not have known any better. Saints aren’t infallible- the Church is.
 
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romano:
But is there any scriptural evidence for purgatory? Does Christ mention purgatory anywhere? Isn’t the doctrine of purgatory rather something that was cooked up precisely because the notion of hell that we find in the scriptures seems inconsistent with an infinitely loving and merciful God?

Who first posited purgatory?
Since I’ve seen plenty of Scripture quoting, I figured I’d offer this: many Jews pray the Kaddish (the prayer for the dead) for deceased relatives. They pray this for eleven months. The concept behind it is strikingly close to purgatory.
 
Nope, The Church should not and will not reconsider it’s position about Hell. Hell is real, it is something God has told us and something that The Church has defined as a De Fide dogma already.

The fact that some people find it hard to accept or thnk that it is horrible is irrelevant.
 
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romano:
Apparently certain important Early Church Fathers such as St. Gregory of Nyssa felt that the notion of hell as eternal damnation was incompatible with the infinite love and mercy of God.

Should a new Council be called to re-examine the Church’s official position on hell with a view to its possible revision?

ISTM that the Church could usefully consider the tone and emphasis of the way in which the teaching is presented; but not so as to deny that man is capable of irreversible exile from God.​

That must be kept. Other truths or ideas have their place in the Church’s articulation of the faith God has given her - more emphasis could usefully be laid on the “universalist” elements in St. Paul’s gospel - but the Church cannot neglect or deny or obscure the terrifying possibility that we can so abuse our God-created nature as to turn definitively from God and experience Him as Divine Wrath instead of Divine Love. If we are damned, it always by our fault - the fault is in man, never in God.

To deny that there is genuine possibility that we can put ourselves into a state in which we can undergo only irreversible punishment, is to deny that God’s Blessedness in His Saints is irreversible, or rather, unchangeable: ultimately, the teaching about Hell is teaching about God; it is because God is Love that there is Hell. If we insist on perceiving God’s Love as evil, we are at liberty to do exactly that; and if we die in such a state, that is the end.

God does not use CGI techniques - if we are disintegrated by our rejection of God, in Whom alone we “are held together” (and to reject Him we must abuse the God-like gift of free will) instead of being integrated, as Christ is & His Saints are, according to the likeness of Christ: why should God pick up the pieces of our ruined nature & put us together again so as to conform us to His Son against our wills ? What sort of God does that ? What could be more cruel than to force the damned to love God: the very idea of Whom is an unspeakable torment ? God is not a sadist - but the notion that the damned can be saved though they abominate and loathe and reject Him, is a horribly cruel doctrine 😦 ##
 
The bad guys get to go where? Heaven? NOT! :nope: What’s left for them other than hell? :hmmm:
 
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Subrosa:
The bad guys get to go where? Heaven? NOT! :nope: What’s left for them other than hell? :hmmm:
I vote that all bad people like that should have to go to High School for the rest of eternity. God nows there is no more suffering than there. 🤓
 
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