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Brendan_64
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Hopey
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The current maturity level required is to have reached the age of reason, about 7. The U.S. has special permission to confirm youth between the age of reason and about 16. If they are going outside of this age, regularly, eg 17 and older then they are breaking what was approved. If the Holy See for some reason decided not to re-approve this, then it would go back to the same time as 1st Holy Communion.
The material used for confirming should be age appropriate also.
Someone else mentioned that they were for moving it even higher than 16 so they could learn more, be better prepared. What is required is to be in a state of grace - confession, and ability to make the profession of faith - creed. Also, because of the current trends for highschoolers to stop going to CCD, we loose quite a bit who are not receiving this sacrament.
One of the beautiful aspects of this sacrament is that of strengthening. Even those who were unsure and questioning faith, as is common among older youth, this could actually help them as it bonds them more closely to Christ and the Church.
Also, our learning about our faith doesn’t stop at 16 or 18. It is ongoing and life long. A child should have a firm grasp of the basics when they graduate but some things will only come with maturity and doing - understanding of the Eucharist more deeply - beauty of the sacrament of penance hopefully on to vocation which would be Holy Order or Marriage.
So, if someone were to say keep it at a higher age just so they could learn more, they would be denying themselves and others the strengthening this sacraments confers on them. Also, it is never to late to learn more about our faith.If we had little to no substantial things taught to us, as adults we can relearn and excel forward. It is common for most adults to not know even the basics now. Even those who have waited very late to receive this.
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Phemie
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While I couldn’t name the parish, I’m aware of one bishop who did exactly that a few years ago. It made it to these forums, IIRC.
Contrast that with our former bishop who, when approached by our catechist prior to the day with her concern that she wouldn’t be able to respond “Yes,” to his question, “Are these children properly prepared for this sacrament?” because at least two of them were not prepared or even interested in being confirmed, told her not to worry. At the point of the ceremony where that question came into play, he changed it to “Have you prepared these children to the best of your abilities?” To that she could truthfully reply, “Yes.”
Who benefitted the most? The children who were denied, or those who received some graces and gifts? Do we have any way of knowing?
Do we need to know anything to benefit from the Gifts of the Holy Spirit? Obviously not, since the Latin Church teaches that infants in danger of dying should be confirmed as well as baptized.
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markomalley
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IF it is intended to have its “rite of passage” character (which, regardless of anything that is said, it has JUST that characteristic in the West), then it should be done when children are older and are able to make a personal commitment.
IMHO, in either case, it makes no sense whatsoever to confirm children at age 14. Either do it when the child is an infant (if you stress the “grace” part of chrismation, or do it when they are older (if you stress the Christian Maturity part of confirmation). As often as not, a child of 14 does not have the maturity to make the commitment involved to voluntarily receive that seal…as often as not, the child receives the sacrament because either the parents or the grandparents believe it to be important.
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GRATEFULONEjim
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I agree with you on maturity level. Our Diocese (Buffalo) Confirms in 11th grade. The Confirmands are well prepared to carry on the Mission of the Church and are well grounded in its teachings.
The children remain engaged in Religious Education all throughout the process 5th-11th grade and are truly part of the parish community.
I teach 3rd grade RE. (1st Eucharist) The children DO NOT have a firm grasp on the teachings of the Church at that age. Their learning is in its infancy. I understand the reasoning behind people who are pro-early confirmation. There is absolutely nothing wrong with extending the age to 11th grade. I have found throughout the years that most who have issue with it also have conflicting schedules with Sunday sports teams and events.
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Brendan_64
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Yet we still deem them as having enough understanding in order to receive the Eucharist.is that a less complex Sacrament, that requires a lesser degree of understanding in order to receive it?
Why do we see Confirmation as some sort of recognition that they have reached a certain level of competency in the understanding of their Faith? Or do we regard it as being in some way a person is making an informed affirmation? If we take that approach then surely we ought to go down the route of the Baptists with adult Baptism only?
We Baptise infants who have no understanding whatsoever about what is happening to them, we allow children to receive the Eucharist when they are not old enough to have a proper understanding of the Pascal Mystery and the sacrifice that takes place in the Eucharist, yet to be confirmed we quibble about whether or not children have a firm grasp of the teachings of the Church. It really does not make a lot of sense.
They are all gifts of God’s grace and ought not to be reliant on the receiver acquiring a particular level of ‘competency’ in their understanding of our Faith. We ought to do as the Eastern Church does and administer all 3 Sacraments when the child is an infant.
I think that we ought not have to earn the ‘right’ to God’s Grace through acquired knowledge and understanding.
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UncleBill
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that’s it lets just give in and make the sacrament a route of passage…ugh!:banghead:
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GRATEFULONEjim
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We Baptize infants because that is what Jesus told us to do. The child after completion of 3rd Grade RE certainly has a firm grasp on the Paschal Mystery and the sacrifice of Jesus dying on the cross, and what the Eucharist truly is. The whole years coursework is based on this.
And yes Confirmation should be considered the “sending off point, the fruition of childhood catechesis” for the newly Confirmed to proudly and confidently go out and begin to evangelize as we are all called to do through our Baptism.
Why should we “trivialize” such an important Sacrament?
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Usige
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Recently I was reading about how the order of confirmation and first Eucharist became reversed. As I understand it up through the 19th century children were confirmed at the age of reason (7-10) and then would receive first Eucharist after additional catechisis. Pope Pius X lower the age of first Eucharist (at that time 10-12) partially because he perceived a growing trend towards treating the first Eucharist as a reward. Instead now confirmation and Eucharist have flipped places where confirmation is treated as some kid of comming of age ceremony. Looking at Vatican II and how RCIA was to restore the order of the sacraments of initiation I think that should be applied to those born into the catholic church by returning to baptism, confirmation, and finally Eucharist.
I think one of the biggest disconnects is that people forget what graces confirmation provides us. In particular that confirmation provides the grace to confess the name of Christ boldly, and never to be ashamed of the Cross. Given the secularization of society and denigration of religious I would think children need the sacramental graces long before highschool or even middle school.
Would you deny the protection of a car seat because a child doesn’t understand how it works? Of course not. So why deny a child the graces to strengthen their conviction of the salvation of Christ crucified?
I think one of the biggest disconnects is that people forget what graces confirmation provides us. In particular that confirmation provides the grace to confess the name of Christ boldly, and never to be ashamed of the Cross. Given the secularization of society and denigration of religious I would think children need the sacramental graces long before highschool or even middle school.
Would you deny the protection of a car seat because a child doesn’t understand how it works? Of course not. So why deny a child the graces to strengthen their conviction of the salvation of Christ crucified?
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CDB1718
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Who among us is capable of understanding the mysteries of God? Who among us is worthy of the sacraments? None of us. A few years of age doesn’t change anything in that regard.
Confirmation is a sealing of Baptism and it imparts the Holy Spirit, just like the Holy Spirit descended on Christ when He was baptized. He didn’t get out of the water and wait a few years, pass a pop quiz, do 20 service hours, have a Mass and Confession attendance card punched, and take 3 years of classes that end in a retreat before the Holy Spirit could descend on Him.
That we’d tie the sacraments to the idea that we are so mature and enlightened in adulthood and better able to comprehend the magnitude of the Lord and therefore more prepared to receive Him in the sacraments is Gnostic as well as prideful as well as contradictory to the Lord’s statement that to enter heaven we need to be like little children. It flies in the face of the very reason for the sacrament. It just makes no sense.
It’s so backwards to think that a child/teen who is deprived of the indwelling presence of the Lord through years of struggle and trial against interior and exterior pressures and temptations is going to come through just fine, but that same person can’t graduate high school without a sacrament affirming his adulthood for him. Kids going off to college have a high school graduation to celebrate their educational transition. If they want to deepen their faith, they should look into one of the many Bible studies, Cursillo or other programs, volunteer opportunities, third orders, or other ways adults deepen their faith lives. They should prepare for Holy Orders, Marriage, or Religious Vows. These are spiritual “graduations” and they already have ceremonies attached to them.
Would we deny our children food or warm clothing until they’re old enough to understand and appreciate them, too? Why do that to their souls if we wouldn’t dream of doing it to their bodies? Why bother raising them in the faith at all if we aren’t going to provide them with the graces available through the Church to live in this fallen world?
I am in favor of the Roman Catholics restoring and reclaiming their own tradition which is to baptize, then confirm, then commune young children. It isn’t identical to the Eastern practice, but it isn’t anything like the sacraments on a string used to keep kids minimally interested and participating in the church until they go off to college and abandon it all we see right now. Having a sense of community, support, and accountability with built-in transitions where they can grow deeper in their faith are the work of catechesis and fellowship, not the sacraments. We shouldn’t hold the sacraments hostage because of the parish’s failings in those other regards.
Confirmation is a sealing of Baptism and it imparts the Holy Spirit, just like the Holy Spirit descended on Christ when He was baptized. He didn’t get out of the water and wait a few years, pass a pop quiz, do 20 service hours, have a Mass and Confession attendance card punched, and take 3 years of classes that end in a retreat before the Holy Spirit could descend on Him.
That we’d tie the sacraments to the idea that we are so mature and enlightened in adulthood and better able to comprehend the magnitude of the Lord and therefore more prepared to receive Him in the sacraments is Gnostic as well as prideful as well as contradictory to the Lord’s statement that to enter heaven we need to be like little children. It flies in the face of the very reason for the sacrament. It just makes no sense.
It’s so backwards to think that a child/teen who is deprived of the indwelling presence of the Lord through years of struggle and trial against interior and exterior pressures and temptations is going to come through just fine, but that same person can’t graduate high school without a sacrament affirming his adulthood for him. Kids going off to college have a high school graduation to celebrate their educational transition. If they want to deepen their faith, they should look into one of the many Bible studies, Cursillo or other programs, volunteer opportunities, third orders, or other ways adults deepen their faith lives. They should prepare for Holy Orders, Marriage, or Religious Vows. These are spiritual “graduations” and they already have ceremonies attached to them.
Would we deny our children food or warm clothing until they’re old enough to understand and appreciate them, too? Why do that to their souls if we wouldn’t dream of doing it to their bodies? Why bother raising them in the faith at all if we aren’t going to provide them with the graces available through the Church to live in this fallen world?
I am in favor of the Roman Catholics restoring and reclaiming their own tradition which is to baptize, then confirm, then commune young children. It isn’t identical to the Eastern practice, but it isn’t anything like the sacraments on a string used to keep kids minimally interested and participating in the church until they go off to college and abandon it all we see right now. Having a sense of community, support, and accountability with built-in transitions where they can grow deeper in their faith are the work of catechesis and fellowship, not the sacraments. We shouldn’t hold the sacraments hostage because of the parish’s failings in those other regards.
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coachdennis
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Among catechists the “joke” has been for the past 30 to 40 years is that Confirnation is a sacrament in search of a theology.
Joke meaning this sacrament has had more experimentation on it than any other sacrament.
This discussion shows the challenges – especially with the appropriate age, etc. In my more sarcastic moments I have called it the Buzz Lightyear sacrament: It can be received from any age “to infinity!”
Joke meaning this sacrament has had more experimentation on it than any other sacrament.
This discussion shows the challenges – especially with the appropriate age, etc. In my more sarcastic moments I have called it the Buzz Lightyear sacrament: It can be received from any age “to infinity!”
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Cider
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It has a theology, it’s just become obscured due to the change in timing and the change in focus.
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babochka
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But you are trying to change the church’s theology of the sacrament, as this is not what the Church teaches that Confirmation is.
There is no trivialization of the sacrament to acknowledge it as the sacrament which perfects baptism and brings the gifts of the Holy Spirit, preparing the Christian for a Christian life. Sounds kind of important to me.
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Hopey
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Another reason to return it to a lower age, age of discretion, is to do away with the false theology that has been born, namely that one has to be mature enough to receive it. Maturity of the soul doesn’t always match the age of the person. We have never believed that either.
If we are determined to stick w the false theology of maturity, then it should to moved to being administed at their death bed. Only then can we be sure they are as mature as they will get.
This isn’t what we believe nor what should be taught.
If we are determined to stick w the false theology of maturity, then it should to moved to being administed at their death bed. Only then can we be sure they are as mature as they will get.
This isn’t what we believe nor what should be taught.
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GRATEFULONEjim
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This is exactly what delaying the Sacrament does. It allows for the Confirmand to be fully catechized to evangelize a Catholic life.
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CDB1718
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Evangelization is a baptismal call. It comes from receiving the sacraments. Catechesis supports that call. It doesn’t initiate it.
You’re putting the cart before the horse. First sacraments then call to evangelization then catechetical support.
Those kids already have the calling to evangelize because they’re baptized. It’s folly to think a catechist can better prepare them to respond to that call than God can through His sacraments. And terrible to be so sure of one’s superiority over God that one denies the children access to God, replacing it with a human teacher.
No amount of knowledge can compare to the grace of God. First sacraments then call to evangelization then catechetical support.
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GRATEFULONEjim
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I’m putting the cart before the horse ??? I’m just following the direction of my Diocese that Confirms in 11th grade. I faithfully stand by their direction and decision on the matter.
Really it’s as simple as that.
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CDB1718
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They have a canonical right to choose Confirmation between ages 7 and 16 right now. The theological implications of a later age that you’re promoting do not have any history in Catholic theology. No matter what age is chosen, the theology of the sacrament being a sealing of Baptism and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit remains the same.
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Hopey
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I think some bishops are finally realize they have been doing things, allowing things that are incorrect also.
What is approved, age, for U.S. is between age of discretion and about 16. That would mean the latest a diocese confirms youth is 9th grade. 10th max. Understanding the term ‘about 16’ to mean approaching or on. A 17 yo would not consider themselves about 16 but about 18.
It is something that is long over due in addressing and following what is approved.
What is approved, age, for U.S. is between age of discretion and about 16. That would mean the latest a diocese confirms youth is 9th grade. 10th max. Understanding the term ‘about 16’ to mean approaching or on. A 17 yo would not consider themselves about 16 but about 18.
It is something that is long over due in addressing and following what is approved.
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