Should the Gloria and Sanctus always be sung rather than recited?

[O_Moriah]

and many of them are absolute trash to be perfectly honest.

I agree. I went through them all and for each Mass response (Gloria, Holy, etc…), there were only about ten I thought were worthwhile. So, I pretty much ditched 80% of them as unusable.

 

[superamazingman]

I agree. I went through them all and for each Mass response (Gloria, Holy, etc…), there were only about ten I thought were worthwhile. So, I pretty much ditched 80% of them as unusable.

Agreed. And not just from a sacred music standpoint, but simply from a musical standpoint.

 

[John_Lilburne]

In post #13 above I quoted the beginning of the section of Singing During Mass (from the 1967 Instruction Musicam sacram).

But there is also this sentence near the end of the section:

“36. Any one of the parts of the Proper of the Ordinary in a low Mass may be sung. Sometimes it is even quite appropriate to have other songs at the beginning, at the presentation of the gifts, and at the communion, as well as at the end of Mass.”

(From Documents on the Liturgy 1963-1979, Liturgical Press, Minnesota, 1982, ISBN 0-8146-1281-4, page 1300.)

Here is another translation of the sentence from the Instruction at vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_instr_19670305_musicam-sacram_en.html .

“36. There is no reason why some of the Proper or Ordinary should not be sung in said Masses. Moreover, some other song can also, on occasions, be sung at the beginning, at the Offertory, at the Communion and at the end of Mass.”

I find it confusing. I seems to say the opposite of what was being said about the three degrees in n. 29-31. Perhaps it is about high mass instead of low mass. A low mass can have lots of things sung, without regard to degrees. A high mass might have only a limited amount of singing from the 1st degree.

 

[Phemie]

Without stepping into the debate about sing-through (aka through-composed) or refrain-based Glorias, I just want to point out that many of the new settings of the Gloria made for the new translation are through-composed, or, if they have a refrain, work very well skipping the refrain and singing it through-composed (or, repeating the refrain again just at the end).

The three approved settings in Canada (other than the Missal chants) have a responsorial Gloria. Our choir opted for the Angeles setting and sang it with the response for a few months then stopped using the refrain and started singing it as a through composition. The only thing that was congregation-friendly about this setting was the response, now few sing any of it at all.

 

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[Simon62]

Given the choice I prefer the sung mass. Maybe I’m biased as I sing in our small choir here in Normandie. From the entrance hymn and the Asperges, through Introit, etc. right to the Communion,Ite missa est and Salve Regina/Alma Redemptoris, the whole mass is sung, albeit in Latin using the Paroissien Romain Chant Gregorien No.800
So we always sing the Gloria and Sanctus in the Ordinary according to the calendar. For instance, today we are using VIII De Angelis as per Christmas, but next Sunday, 2nd after Epiphanie it will change to Kyriale XI Orbis Factor.
I just love singing Gregorian Chant for the Mass
Happy 2013
Simon

 

[Filii_Dei]

Our parish always sings it, and I personally think that’s as it should be. After all, wouldn’t the angels in Heaven be singing it rather than speaking it?

However, I’ve been to Mass at other parishes where it was recited (spoken) and not sung. Somehow, it didn’t seem “right”, and it felt like everyone was just parroting off a bunch of words with no real meaning or feeling. Singing the Gloria seems to add more “Glory” than simply speaking it! After all, aren’t we giving ALL glory to God? Speaking the words just doesn’t seem to have the same impact-- not to me, anyway. It sounds like an emotionless “blah-blah” rather than a joyful rendering of glory to God!

How about the Sanctus (Hosanna)? Again, it seems more “proper and fitting” to always sing the Sanctus rather than rambling it off as spoken words. This is the ANGELS’ song, and at this moment we join the angels when we proclaim God’s Holiness! Yet, I’ve heard it spoken many times, rather than being sung. I’d rather hear the Agnus Dei being spoken than either of these two… though I rather that the Agnus be sung, as well, rather than spoken. I’m just a sucker for liturgical music!

Thoughts?

In my diocese, the standard practise is that if there are no musicians or instruments, the default is to chant it according to the chant notations given by ICEL. However, during weekday masses, some parishes do recite the propers and order of the mass. I do understand the strange feeling of reciting rather than singing, but do recall that a Tridentine Low Mass used to be recited as well. This is well and keeping within Tradition.

As for the aversion towards refrain-based Glorias, I invite everyone to take a listen to the Mass of the Angels (yes, based on the very same Missa de Angelis, Mode VIII of pre-Novus Ordo fame) composed by Richard J Clark. He has a refrain-based and a through-composed arrangement. Both are just beautiful, but I would have to say I like the first better, even though it is refrain-based, and on liturgical principles I usually prefer through-composed.

 

[RCinColo60]

I love it when the prayers are spoken instead of sung. That’s beacause I can’t sing.

 

[misspriss]

How about the Sanctus (Hosanna)? Again, it seems more “proper and fitting” to always sing the Sanctus rather than rambling it off as spoken words. This is the ANGELS’ song, and at this moment we join the angels when we proclaim God’s Holiness! Yet, I’ve heard it spoken many times, rather than being sung. I’d rather hear the Agnus Dei being spoken than either of these two… though I rather that the Agnus be sung, as well, rather than spoken. I’m just a sucker for liturgical music!

Thoughts?

I prefer the spoken to the sung, but that is just me. At my parish, the noon Mass is sung, but early morning and evening Masses are mostly spoken.

Actually, I don’t know if the Angels actually SANG anyway:

One cried out to the other:

“Holy, holy, holy* is the LORD of hosts!

All the earth is filled with his glory!”

The four living creatures, each of them with six wings,* were covered with eyes inside and out. Day and night they do not stop exclaiming:

“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty,

who was, and who is, and who is to come.”

The crowds preceding him and those following kept crying out and saying:

“Hosanna* to the Son of David;

blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord;

hosanna in the highest.

It looks like crying out, exclaiming, and saying were the way. Anyway, I am just not a big singer. I am about as tone-deaf as it comes, my pitch is terrible, etc. I enjoy singing, the occasional song that is in my limited range, but my parish prefers a more soprano style singing, it’s beautiful, but not in my range!

 

[Elizium23]

Actually, I don’t know if the Angels actually SANG anyway:

It looks like crying out, exclaiming, and saying were the way. Anyway, I am just not a big singer. I am about as tone-deaf as it comes, my pitch is terrible, etc. I enjoy singing, the occasional song that is in my limited range, but my parish prefers a more soprano style singing, it’s beautiful, but not in my range!

It is fine if you don’t like singing, that is a personal preference, but to assert that angels do not sing is beyond the pale. It is a well-established fact, at least in popular piety and devotion, that angels sing and do it extremely well. God created music for man to use in His service. It is a shame if your choir does not accommodate the people in pews with singable tunes, but I believe that there are few people who truly cannot be trained to sing well. I will leave you with this quote about one of my new favorite cardinals, +Daniel DiNardo of Galveston-Houston:
Wikipedia:

DiNardo wears hearing aids because calcium deposits in his ears have impaired his hearing. Despite his hearing difficulties, he still prefers to sing or chant parts of the Mass.

I can attest that I have heard him sing and chant and it is absolutely sublime. And I can tell you most assuredly that the day we hear the angels sing it will be even better.

 

[CATHOLICbrl]

I like to sing them but think they should be spoken more frequently than they are. Mass is suppose to be participatory. Unfortunately the Gloria and Sanctus have almost become performance for our music groups at my church. I would much rather hear them spoken by most than sung by a few.

 

[misspriss]

It is fine if you don’t like singing, that is a personal preference, but to assert that angels do not sing is beyond the pale. It is a well-established fact, at least in popular piety and devotion, that angels sing and do it extremely well. God created music for man to use in His service. It is a shame if your choir does not accommodate the people in pews with singable tunes, but I believe that there are few people who truly cannot be trained to sing well. I will leave you with this quote about one of my new favorite cardinals, +Daniel DiNardo of Galveston-Houston:

I can attest that I have heard him sing and chant and it is absolutely sublime. And I can tell you most assuredly that the day we hear the angels sing it will be even better.

Actually I was just stating that it wasn’t an Angel’s song, I do not doubt that Angels would be wonderful singers and do sing, just that in the scripture, they spoke and proclaimed a lot, which makes it perfectly acceptable in Mass. I do not consider my spoken voice any less respectful, worshipful, and reverent than my sung voice. To imply that speaking is any less reverent than singing seems quite far reaching to me. Again, I never stated that Angels DO NOT SING, Just that in the scripture (specifically the scripture the Sanctus was taken from) the Angels proclaimed (cried out, spoke, exclaimed), not specifically sang.

The choir sounds lovely, and accommodates probably 80% of the population. I really enjoy listening to them. I was given a limited vocal range, inherited from my mother, who shared the same limited range. It is a beautiful voice, and it is mine, it just doesn’t lend itself as well to song as it does to speaking. God blessed me with a lovely speaking voice, and that is a wonderful way to worship him.

And who knows, if I had unlimited time and funds, I might be trained to sing. I just know when I did sing in the past, I was put with the tenors, because I didn’t have the range to sing the alto range of women’s singers.

 

[pnewton]

But here’s the problem: Sing to the Lord has absolutely no authority.

Neither does anyone else’s interpretation of the GIRM. It is not meant to be authoritative, but to be a guideline.

Correction, there is one interpretation that matters and that is that of the Bishop who has the authority to implement the GIRM in his diocese.

 

[Phemie]

I like to sing them but think they should be spoken more frequently than they are. Mass is suppose to be participatory. Unfortunately the Gloria and Sanctus have almost become performance for our music groups at my church. I would much rather hear them spoken by most than sung by a few.

But you can participate by listening, not just by singing. Having things sung by the choir alone are valid choices for parishes.

 

[wmw]

But you can participate by listening, not just by singing. Having things sung by the choir alone are valid choices for parishes.

The the idea of only listening or not in some way verbalizing (singing or saying) has never been excepted as proper participation in the Gloria and/or Sanctus!

 

[dshix]

The the idea of only listening or not in some way verbalizing (singing or saying) has never been excepted as proper participation in the Gloria and/or Sanctus!

It is not sinful, or even illicit, to not sing for parts of the mass. It is wholly the choice of the participant. Granted, it is good to do so, but not necessary.

 

[Phemie]

The the idea of only listening or not in some way verbalizing (singing or saying) has never been excepted as proper participation in the Gloria and/or Sanctus!

I’ll concede that the Sanctus is to be sung by everyone but GIRM 53 says

The Gloria in excelsis (Glory to God in the highest) is a most ancient and venerable hymn by which the Church, gathered in the Holy Spirit, glorifies and entreats God the Father and the Lamb. The text of this hymn may not be replaced by any other. It is intoned by the Priest or, if appropriate, by a cantor or by the choir; but it is sung either by everyone together, or by the people alternately with the choir, or by the choir alone. If not sung, it is to be recited either by everybody together or by two choirs responding one to the other.

 

[wmw]

I’ll concede that the Sanctus is to be sung by everyone but GIRM 53 says

This is largely legalistic nonsense, each individual doesn’t have the Authority to make these choices.

The assignment of roles is available to the Priest presiding or Pastor or Bishop not to each individual. Once assigned a role if you choose not to participate then you are not. Ask your confessor whether by choosing not to fulfill the congregation’s assigned role in the Mass if you are sinning. I didn’t address this, only if you are participating or not.

Yes, it can be that the congregation is assigned a silent role at times, but the main issue is self removal from participation being passed off as “participation by listening”.

 

[superamazingman]

This is largely legalistic nonsense, each individual doesn’t have the Authority to make these choices.

The assignment of roles is available to the Priest presiding or Pastor or Bishop not to each individual. Once assigned a role if you choose not to participate then you are not. Ask your confessor whether by choosing not to fulfill the congregation’s assigned role in the Mass if you are sinning. I didn’t address this, only if you are participating or not.

Yes, it can be that the congregation is assigned a silent role at times, but the main issue is self removal from participation being passed off as “participation by listening”.

What is the problem with your so called “participation by listening”? John Paul II said we need it:

Active participation does not preclude the active passivity of silence, stillness and listening: indeed,** it demands it.** Worshippers are not passive, for instance, when listening to the readings or the homily, or following the prayers of the celebrant, and the chants and music of the liturgy.

 

[wmw]

What is the problem with your so called “participation by listening”? John Paul II said we need it:

Active participation does not preclude the active passivity of silence, stillness and listening: indeed,** it demands it.** Worshippers are not passive, for instance, when listening to the readings or the homily, or following the prayers of the celebrant, and the chants and music of the liturgy.

When called for it is a great and proper method of participation, but if the congregation’s role is for singing or speaking one should then continue to participate if able. Context is important.