Should the Government or the Patient Decide What is Medically Necessary

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I_trust said:
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Pup7:
Not always. No it’s not. It depends on a multitude of factors. And as I said, you don’t know his entire status any more than I do.
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Perhaps nutrition and hydration (for someone who can process it) are not always ordinary care according to a certain hospital rules, but they certainly are according to Catholic teaching.
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Not as an absolute, no they most certainly aren’t.

Care providers aren’t required by the Church to perpetually sustain you if you’re in a persistent vegetative state with no real hope of coming out.

You need to phrase your last sentence as “…I wished they always were according to Catholic teaching”.
 
ConfusedLucy said:
The patient in this case couldn’t make a choice.
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I guess you missed where I said:
Personally, I would always rather have the people who love me make decisions for me, even if they make a mistake, because I know they are doing everything out of love for me & my wishes.
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The next of kin should have say (when the patient can’t). Not a doctor, hospital, court, etc.

Doctors, hospitals, courts, etc should only have one thing on their mind: preserving life.

They should NOT be focused on emptying beds
 
I personally would prefer a decision made in my best interests regardless of who made it.
 
I_trust said:
Perhaps nutrition and hydration (for someone who can process it) are not always ordinary care according to a certain hospital rules, but they certainly are according to Catholic teaching.
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Actually, according to other posts in these multiple threads, they’re not always ordinary care.
I_trust said:
The treating doctor is not the final speaker either.

The patient is (or the parent on his behalf)
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I sort of figured that went without saying. Even if the patient checks out AMA, guess who signs the order (yes, any discharge is an order)? The attending provider.
 
phil19034 said:
Doctors, hospitals, courts, etc should only have one thing on their mind: preserving life.

They should NOT be focused on emptying beds
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I find this continued affirmation across multiple threads disturbing.

THIS IS NOT WHAT MEDICAL PROVIDERS THINK. Please, stay away from health care if this is your belief.
 
Traditionally, he who pays the piper gets to call the tune. In the Alfie case, its was the British government financing the medical system.

The British people have two choices if they don’t like it. Close up the NHS or get people at the NHS with values more in line with their own.
 
England’s leading Catholic, the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster, quoted today:

Speaking to the Polish church’s Catholic information agency, KAI, he said: “It’s important to remember Alder Hey hospital cared for Alfie not for two weeks or two months, but for 18 months, consulting with the world’s top specialists – so its doctors’ position, that no further medical help could be given, was very important.

“The church says very clearly we do not have a moral obligation to continue a severe therapy when it’s having no effect, while the church’s catechism also teaches that palliative care, which isn’t a denial of help, can be an act of mercy. Rational action, spared of emotion, can be an expression of love; and I’m sure Alfie received this kind of care.

“It’s very hard to act in a child’s best interest when this isn’t always as the parents would wish – and this is why a court must decide what’s best, not for the parents, but for the child.”

www.theguardian.com

Archbishop hits out at 'political aims' of some Alfie Evans campaigners

Cardinal Nichols’ comments come amid rising criticism of role of Christian groups in case
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
This has been repeated many times in this thread and in others regarding this case:

The government had nothing to do with this decision.

Alder Hay is an independent hospital, they get paid per patient they see by the commissioning organisation in their geographic area. Alder Hay would be making money from keeping Alfie in their care.
 
Pup7 said:
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phil19034:
Doctors, hospitals, courts, etc should only have one thing on their mind: preserving life.

They should NOT be focused on emptying beds
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I find this continued affirmation across multiple threads disturbing.

THIS IS NOT WHAT MEDICAL PROVIDERS THINK. Please, stay away from health care if this is your belief.
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This might not be what you think, but it is what some atheists who run hospitals think, many of who are not doctors & nurses.

If I can find the source again, I will send it. But in the the United States, during the 1980s there was a hospital administrator who was determined to find a way to save money. His answer was to reduce the number of beds in a hospital. The next “problem” for him was to figure out how to do this. His answer was to redefine “assisted nutrition & hydration” as extraordinary care (life support) vs ordinary care.

He was successful in redefining the legal definition of ”assisted nutrition & hydration” as life support, leading hospitals all around the country to reduce the number of beds they had because they were given the legal right to recommend to a family to pull the plug on machines that provided assisted nutrition & hydration.

I don’t have sources at the moment, but I was taught all of this by the Archdiocese.

In the meantime, I recommend you watch this video which teaches what the Catholic Church teaches regarding assisted nutrition & hydration.

http://phillycatholiclife.org/life-affirming-choices-3/videos/

Second video called “Assisted Nutrition & Hydration.”

Though all the videos are good
 
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The government cannot handle this type of responsibility, nor do they care.
 
SuperLuigi said:
The government cannot handle this type of responsibility, nor do they care.
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I’m not sure I agree with you there, but I am certain that no MP would want to get involved in end of life decisions, because of the backlash from those who didn’t agree with whatever stance they took, and there would be votes lost.

Far better to leave it to lawyers who are not part of the government in the UK, and so can take unpopular decisions without repercussions.
 
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I trust in the autonomy of patients, I trust in the rights of parents, I trust in God. No stranger-no public or private body-should dare replace the family in choosing alternative healthcare for the child if it is available.

“The human family is, in a certain sense, the icon of the Trinity because of the love between its members and the fruitfulness of that love.”

— Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI
 
Monica83 said:
I trust in the autonomy of patients, I trust in the rights of parents, I trust in God. No stranger-no public or private body-should dare replace the family in choosing alternative healthcare for the child if it is available.

“The human family is, in a certain sense, the icon of the Trinity because of the love between its members and the fruitfulness of that love.”

— Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI
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Beautiful, empathetic quote.

It also highlights where Popes can be wrong, even when they have the greatest intentions.

It’s brutal. But sometimes mom and dad don’t know what’s best.
 
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The parents weren’t abusive or neglectful-they showed him the most unconditional love a human being could. And just because a life isn’t lived ideally, does not mean its not a life worth saving. Alfie was a SOUL, just because he had an imperfect body does not mean he should’ve been cast aside.

I heard that in the UK if you are an infant/toddler with long term disability they quickly deem you not worthy of continued care. Here in the U.S. many long term care facilities are equipped with vent units and the patient or family decides when to stop interventional care. The U.S. has incentives to find cures/treatment for disorders like the one Alfie had. The NHS…not so much.
 
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Maybe they should be asking why the decisions are so unpopular in the first place…
 
HolySpirit said:
The Alfie discussion boils down to who should make the decision to terminate medical care to a patient. Should it be the Government or should it be the Patient and/or their family?
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In the case of Alfie Evans the Government did not decide to terminate medical care .

The medical team treating Alfie made the decision , a decision backed by the judiciary when his parents challenged Alder Hey’s medical staff’s decision .
 
Would they have been arrested if they tried to leave the hospital? Mmmkay. I think we all know the government was involved in this.
 
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