Should the Government or the Patient Decide What is Medically Necessary

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This is a side issue, but interesting (at least I think so). I’m not sure where you are from, Scarlett, but I would be surprised if anyone from Britain thought a court was part of the government. It’s one of the organs of the state, of course, but certainly not, in my view, part of the government.

Strangely, in view of the often asserted theory that the United States takes the separation of powers more seriously than the United Kingdom, this is not the case in the matter of the judiciary. The British judiciary acts quite separately from the government, and has not succumbed to that politicisation that, in British eyes, so disfigures the American system.
Nicely put, PickyPicky.

No, we in the UK do not consider the courts to be part of he Government. It seems self-evident they are not, as they are not subject to elections every five years (or less) but are independently arranged.
 
Unless the parent(s) are medical professionals, I know I love my son but I am not going to try to take out his appendix!!!
 
Well I definitely don’t support socialized healthcare for a number of reasons. But when it comes to certain medical decisions, it depends. For instance, it is reasonable to legislate against abortion, assisted suicide, or trans-ableism which is the cutting off of limbs rendering people disabled because they “feel” like they should be disabled.

However, when it comes to situations like little Alfie, the government caused harm when it could have been avoided. They did not have the right to keep Alfie in their hospital with Italy granted Alfie citizenship and access to be treated. This should have been a family concern.

Subjects like Christian Scientists who don’t believe in certain medical procedures, however, may have reason to be interfered if, say, their child is in critical condition and needs urgent medical care but the parents won’t allow it. This has happened before.
 
I get the difference, but this is getting hairsplitting.

The core question is whether or not the parents or another authoritative/authoritarian body of non-parents should be making medical decisions for a child. Call it the government, the courts, or a tribunal of Kling-Ons.

@HolySpirit perhaps edit your title to replace the word “Government” with “Courts” so that we can move this discussion along.
 
If the courts aren’t part of the government wouldn’t that mean you could ignore their rulings without the governments police force enforcing those rulings?
 
The medical professionals should outline what options are available in a way the patient or patients next of kin can understand. Ideally they should come to a decision together.

A mentally competant patient can refuse treatment against the doctors advice.

When the patient is unable to decide for themselves and the family and doctors disagree then some form of 3rd party should mediate.
Which, if I’m not mistaken is what happened recently in England. The problem comes into play when doctors and patient’s family can’t come to an agreement. It’s sad to be faced with end of life issues when you aren’t prepared, and if you have only limited medical knowledge, it’s very overwhelming as you don’t always know the right questions to ask. Most people don’t understand the dying process, they don’t realize that there are times when providing nutrition is actually harmful to a dying person. As your organs shut down, they stop processing nutrition which can cause additional problems, that is why nutrition can be stopped.

I’ve gone through this process on a personal level, it’s not fun and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. I am thankful that I had doctors and nurses who took the time to explain what was going on so that I could understand.
 
This is mostly my position. Expertise in medicine doesn’t always amount to expertise in bioethics. And even with the latter, bioethics are largely subjective, and in the vast majority of cases, that subjectivity needs to rest with the patient or patient’s parents/legal guardians.
 
However, when it comes to situations like little Alfie, the government caused harm when it could have been avoided. They did not have the right to keep Alfie in their hospital with Italy granted Alfie citizenship and access to be treated. This should have been a family concern.
The treatment in Italy would have been the SAME as what he was receiving in the UK. The Italian doctors consulted with the UK doctors and agreed they could do nothing more for Alfie than was already being done. Additionally, transporting him could have caused further brain degradation, and it was possible he would have endured additional pain. How would that have been in his best interests?
 
Parents can be wrong. Can we accept the possibility that this infant with severe brain damage was entitled the right to do a natural death without prolonging the process?
 
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The treatment in Italy would have been the SAME as what he was receiving in the UK. The Italian doctors consulted with the UK doctors and agreed they could do nothing more for Alfie than was already being done. Additionally, transporting him could have caused further brain degradation, and it was possible he would have endured additional pain. How would that have been in his best interests?
From my understanding, Italy would have offered Alfie life support of which Britain took him off.

Nonetheless, regardless about it being the same, whether the case or not, restring the family to make that choice and physically having police barricade them in wasn’t right. I know that Pope Francis kept a military helicopter on standby for him.

It’s worth noting that the British government said that Alfie should “die with dignity.” Alfie was only two. This was a horrible thing to say. They had no right to do this.
 
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It’s worth noting that the British government said that Alfie should “die with dignity.” Alfie was only two. This was a horrible thing to say. They had no right to do this.
Why was this a horrible thing to say? Isn’t that consistent with Catholic teaching, that we all be allowed to die with dignity? Yes, Alfie was only two, but he was suffering from a seemingly incurable, fatal disease.
 
Why was this a horrible thing to say? Isn’t that consistent with Catholic teaching, that we all be allowed to die with dignity? Yes, Alfie was only two, but he was suffering from a seemingly incurable, fatal disease.
Because it was undignified – they knew that taking him off of life support would have resulted in death. They were suggesting that it is undignified to keep him on life support. This is why so many people were appalled at the British government for not allowing Alfie the chance. If they couldn’t have continued, others were wiling to try, like Italy, and they didn’t grant him that option. That is what was undignified.
 
Yeah I never get why people think/suggest that the very natural urge to want to continue living despite hardship is undignified.
 
There is hardship and then there is having 70% of your brain disappear.

Leaving you without the ability to move, see, process sound or think.

The sounds you DO hear and the touch you DO feel and the things you DO see, induce near constant seizures that no medication was able to control.

Did you ever see any of the photos they posted of Alfie without his dummy in? All the insides of his mouth were bitten and bleeding because his seizures caused him to bite all the inside of his mouth.

Lets add a haze of pain medication, a ventilator, a gastro tube, a catheter and various tests, needles and infections.

Its all very well you as an adult, with your faculties intact to be able to say you would want to keep living. This little boy was trapped in a world where the basic things that make life were stripped from him. The things he could process wreaked havoc on his body.

The worst part is, during all of that, if he was in pain, we will never know because he was robbed of the ability to say ‘mummy, this hurts’.
 
Wow. Well luckily a dignified life has nothing to do with being pain free. There are some people that have far greater emotional pain in their lives than any physical pain possible. Some of that emotional pain does not have a cure. Should they just take themselves to the euthanasia “doctor” and end it all? Our lives have inherent dignity by simply BEING-and made in the Image of God. And no authoritarian system has the right to speed along someone’s death by holding them prisoner.
 
Different definitions of dignity will thus ensue. I’m not convinced Alfie’s last hours of life were all that dignified, but It’s not really up to me to make that decision.
 
The Alfie discussion boils down to who should make the decision to terminate medical care to a patient. Should it be the Government or should it be the Patient and/or their family? Which is more ethical? Who do you want making your decisions when you or someone you love is on the deathbed?
Was is the government or the doctors decision? I though it was the Dr and then the judge supported that decision?

What I don’t understand is how could they justify not let the parents take their child to another hospital?

Ultimately, I support the Dr in being able to make medical judgements on what treatments to offer/administer… and parents absolutely right to their children… meaning they should have been able to move the child wherever they like
 
What I don’t understand is how could they justify not let the parents take their child to another hospital?
Because he would have received the exact same care at the other hospital that would have taken him, but transporting him to that hospital would have been risky.
 
Because he would have received the exact same care at the other hospital that would have taken him, but transporting him to that hospital would have been risky.
Still should have been parents right to take that risk.
 
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